Blue or Purple?

[mookien]

Ken: Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful reply. I have found out a couple of interesting things myself since my last posting (see below).

I looked at the Silver Thistle (ST) thread count prior to my original posting, and while the pallet shows Balmoral Blue, it is not in the actual thread count, as are Blue and the mysterious oxford (OX)!? I can't imagine why that might be, unless it is simply an error in transcription.

On the Flickr color chart you posted, how can you tell that color is Oxford Blue? I cannot find it on Scotweb's color chart. In fact, if I enter its RGB numbers, 48;48;116 on Scotweb, I am taken to a color called "Deep Koamaru". See the following picture. I hope the quality makes it viewable.



Interestingly (to me anyway), if I use the Weaver's Colors on Scotweb and choose "Blues and Purples", in the sixth row down the first spool is labeled "Oxford Blue", but there are no RGB numbers that I can find.

You're right about the "purple" in the scarf. It looks almost like blue velvet on my monitor. But, the Warrior kilt (very handsome I might add) does look purple, but not darkly so. The picture below is one of that tartan I snapped off the Marton Mills web page. Now, that's a great purple tartan - and with two shades of purple indeed! Maybe, I'll get one like that instead of the ST.



Finally, I contacted HoE and they told me that they only weave the ST for a company called The Kilt Centre. A very nice lady there, Anne Fiddes, offered to send me a swatch of the ST tartan (are you reading this paulhenry? thank you) and despite my earlier misgivings, I accepted her generous offer. By the way, I can't believe it is only a coincidence that her last name is the same as Dr. Nicholas Fiddes of Scotweb. If so, it's a small world, I guess. ;-)

When I get the swatch, I will post a picture and hopefully, we can bury the remains of this old plug.

[mookien]

Below is a picture of the swatch of Silver Thistle that was kindly sent to me by Anne Fiddes of The Kilt Centre. I will reserve my comments until I see how well the picture represents the real tartan - to my eye anyway.

[mookien]

The swatch appears even darker in real life than it does in the picture. The black areas are extremely dark, of course, but they also make the other stripes appear darker, except in the few areas where the oxford and gray stripes intersect themselves. The oxford-only areas are distinctly blue, not purple, though I must own that my son told me that he could see a bit of purple in them, and his young eyes are better than mine. :-)

All in all, it is a very elegant, modern-looking tartan with subdued colors that blend together beautifully. IMHO it would make a very fashionable, though not very traditional, looking kilt.

Ironically, and perhaps tellingly, the oxford stripes that look dark blue in the swatch do show a slight purple hue in the picture. Perhaps that provides a clue as to why the STA and SRT pictures of this tartan appear so differently.

Not being a photographer I cannot speculate as to why that might be the case, but I can say that in taking the picture it was very difficult to get the black to look as truly dark as it is in the actual tartan. With light and/or a flash on the swatch, the black appeared ingrained with white pixels, which produced a dark, charcoal gray look, even a brownish look with more light (?!). The picture above was taken under very low light, and perhaps that has something to do with the purple hue. Maybe it's just that the purple in the oxford shows up better in lower light. ;-)

As mentioned in a posting above, this tartan is only woven by the HoE for The Kilt Centre, so it appears not to be a matter explained by shades of color difference in the same-named-color threads of disparate weavers, but perhaps their colors vary a bit from run to run.

Also, in the picture the two vertical gray stripes look a bit wobbly, because they are located where the swatch was folded during shipping.

Finally, if anyone ever sees an RGB designation for oxford, please let me know.

[fluter]

Well done! I do enjoy knowing the answer after all our speculation. That is a handsome tartan.

The only downside of Warrior is that it's only woven in PV. there are some other nice purple-oriented tartans, but we have amply illustrated why caution is in order.

[Downunder Kilt]

Ironically, and perhaps tellingly, the oxford stripes that look dark blue in the swatch do show a slight purple hue in the picture. Perhaps that provides a clue as to why the STA and SRT pictures of this tartan appear so differently.

Not being a photographer I cannot speculate as to why that might be the case, but I can say that in taking the picture it was very difficult to get the black to look as truly dark as it is in the actual tartan. With light and/or a flash on the swatch, the black appeared ingrained with white pixels, which produced a dark, charcoal gray look, even a brownish look with more light (?!). The picture above was taken under very low light, and perhaps that has something to do with the purple hue.

I alway thought that the images shown on the STA and SRT sites were computer generated images anyhow, so any comparision with a photo of tartan cloth or the actual tartan is neither here or there.

[mookien]

Ken: Yes, you and others are correct - unless one is willing to gamble, getting a first-hand look at the tartan is essential. I unknowingly gambled on my Blaylock kilt, but luckily for me, the real thing looked even better than the pictures. I may be a tad biased, however. ;-)

Why do you regard PV as a downside? I understand it is less expensive, but what are the advantages/disadvantages compared to wool? If you know a thread that will shed light on these questions, please let me know. Thanks.

[mookien]

Downunder Kilt: They may very well be computer generated, but if so, there has to be a computer mapping of some kind from each color in the threadcount to a specific color represented by some unique ID, like RGB numbers. Maybe STA and STR use an extensive pallet in some way similar to that used by Scotweb.

Incidentally, I did not mention in my previous postings that if you bring up Scotweb's Tartan designer, access the Silver Thistle, and choose Modify, it will appear differently depending on whether you select "Convert to Weaver's Colours" or "Use the Pro Colours". That, of course, is not surprising in itself, but in the former case the blue looks blue, but the oxford looks purple. In the latter both the blue and oxford appear as purple!

That may very well suggest computer-generated images, but even so, there is something unusual going on with the colors - the Weaver's map blue to blue, but the Pro's map blue to purple. (!?)

[Jock Scot]

There is no accepted colour code agreement in the world of Tartans, which means that different weavers can choose variations of the colours as long as it is substantially the listed colours in the thread count. It's very interesting to compare the same tartan from different makers, sometimes they are very different. So, the answer is to get a sample from the weaver, and only then base your judgement on the sample infront of you

Paul is so right. Some time ago I quoted part of a text written by a very learned and respected tartan expert on this very subject-----sorry I can't find it------anyway basically blue is blue, red is red, green is green and so on.

[mookien]

Jock Scott, et. al.: I very recently ran across the following statement on the SRT web pages at

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/guidance.aspx#4

"Tartan setts are compared according to their base colours as the final shade of the woven fabric will depend on the wools available to the weaver. Therefore, for example, light blue, navy blue and purple are all considered to be blue and changing the shade from light to dark blue will not change the basic pattern”

Purple is considered to be blue!? No wonder I'm confused! Orange must be considered to be red!

There's no hope. It's all Chester Royde's fault.

Cheers.

PS: For those of you who may not know, Chester Royde is a character in Compton Mackenzie's wonderful highland novel, "Monarch of the Glen". Were he real, and alive today, I think he would enjoy this thread.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Actually, orange is considered red.

In any tartan with red in it, if it is woven in the so-called "ancient" colors, the red will be rendered in orange.