The lonely but mighty box-pleat

[Phil]

What's not to be sure about the pleats? It's a traditional pleating style (box pleated), done to stripe, as it also traditional. They are the correct size and number given the amount of cloth, the size of the sett, and the wearer's measurements.

You might not personally care for the look of box pleats, but no one can make the argument that they are incorrect or untraditional.

I have my doubts about the "traditional" argument but am certainly familiar with the style of pleating which is the norm for ladies' skirts and has been for many years. I was simply making the comment that it would allow for a more economical garment which I am sure many here are seeking. I have no doubt that you could find almost as many examples of how a garment was made as there were tailors at the time so have no issue at all with such variations. To try to assert that this is how kilts really should be, however, is both misleading and spurious.

[OC Richard]

I do have to say that in over 35 years of attending Highland Games in California, Virginia, West Virginia, Georgia, North Carolina, and Scotland, I've only seen one Matt Newsome style low-yardage boxpleated kilt, at the San Diego Highland Games two years ago.

By the way, I would call it an "historical" style rather than a "traditional" style, as it went out of mainstream use and evolved into and was replaced by the high-yardage kilt as the 19th century progressed. "Tradtional" implies the current representative an unbroken stream of evolution from today back to unknowable origins; "historical" is going back and plucking an individual thing from somewhere along that stream, and recreating it.

(The current Marine Corps Dress Blues is a traditional uniform; what the Marine Corps wore in 1805 is a historical uniform.)

Of course now that that style has been revived and is becoming popular again, who can say, but 50 years from now it (or whatever it evolves into) might be a traditional style. Who knows? It could replace the high-yardage knifepleated kilt altogether.

Anyhow this is the sort of boxpleated kilt I would like to have made:





But actually in Cameron of Erracht tartan, with somewhat less yardage, the 79th Foot in 1852:

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I have my doubts about the "traditional" argument but am certainly familiar with the style of pleating which is the norm for ladies' skirts and has been for many years.

I suppose it all depends on how you define the word "traditional." The broadest definition would be that pertaining to a continuing pattern of customs or beliefs. The argument against a box pleated kilt being traditional is that it went out of fashion for a while and then has later been revived.

However, I would point out here that box pleats never entirely went away. They were preserved in the uniforms of certain military regiments, albeit other aspects of the kilts changed over time, such as the amount of cloth used.

But if you are speaking of box pleating on its own, irrespective of other stylistic elements of the kilt, then yes this form of pleating is traditional, though not as popular as it once was.

I don't think the comparison to lady's skirts is very helpful, or warranted. I once had someone here on the forum refer to a box pleated kilt as a cheerleader's skirt. First of all, I have seen just as many lady's skirts which were knife pleated as box pleated (and plenty that are not pleated at all), so to suggest that a certain style of pleating is "the norm" for women's clothing is simply not true.

But most importantly, it seems rather out of place to imply on a forum dedicated to the kilt that a man wearing a legitimate form of Highland attire is wearing a skirt.

I was simply making the comment that it would allow for a more economical garment which I am sure many here are seeking. I have no doubt that you could find almost as many examples of how a garment was made as there were tailors at the time so have no issue at all with such variations.

Using less material does make the garment more economical. However, it is equally possible to make a knife pleated kilt from less yardage as it is a box pleated. In fact the next kilt in my client queue is a 5 yard knife pleated kilt.

And you are correct, historically I have seen many variations in how kilts were made. However, in terms of the pleats and the amount of cloth used, for the first half of the nineteenth century all kilts I have seen (or seen documented) have been lower yardage box pleated kilts. So some things seem to have been fairly universal and constant.

To try to assert that this is how kilts really should be, however, is both misleading and spurious.

And have I made any such assertions? Remember, I own and wear knife pleated as well as box pleated kilts, made from varying amounts of cloth ranging from 4 to 8 yards. Each one of them is how a kilt "really should be" in my opinion!

I will make the argument - because I think historically it is true - that in the bygone days when Highland men were by and large wearing the kilt as part of their day-to-day attire the kilts generally were made from a four yard length of cloth and were box pleated.

This is not to say that "this is how kilts really should be." But my suggestion for the (ever increasing) number of men wishing to wear the kilt on a more regular basis, and seeking a lighter weight, less cumbersome version of the kilt to do so in, is to look back into the history of Highland dress and consider the four yard box pleated kilt as an alternative to the more modern "casual kilts" and urban utility style kilts that represent an entirely new fashion.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I do have to say that in over 35 years of attending Highland Games in California, Virginia, West Virginia, Georgia, North Carolina, and Scotland, I've only seen one Matt Newsome style low-yardage boxpleated kilt, at the San Diego Highland Games two years ago.

Bob Martin was the first kilt maker to revise the four yard box pleated kilt in the early 1980's and he was based in and around Greenville, SC, for most of his kilt making career. I remember the first year they held the Greenville Highland Games a few years back. I had never seen so many four yard box pleated kilts at a single Highland games, and it dawned on me that they were all Bob's customers!

I imagine that most of Bob's clients heard about him by word of mouth, and he made all styles of kilts, so not all of them purchased box pleats.

Today, with the internet, word spreads much more quickly. Since 2004, I've made over 500 box pleated kilts and shipped them all over the US, to Canada, to Australia, to Germany, to England and to Scotland. I've also gotten to know a few other kilt makers who are now offering this style.

I was most surprised last fall when I was in Scotland to walk into a kilt outfitter's shop in Paisley and see a four yard box pleated kilt hanging on the rack waiting for pick-up. The store owner called it a "Culloden style kilt" (or maybe he said "Jacobite" I don't recall). The historical time frame was a bit wrong, but still it was something to see a kilt in this style being sold in a mainstream kilt shop in Scotland.

So I think the style is growing in popularity, though it still has a way to go. I attend Highland Games largely here in NC, SC, GA, and TN, and at every one I go to I always see a number of four yard box pleated kilts (mostly ones I've made!). Ten years ago, though, I doubt I would have seen very many.

All that being said, I think that one of the reasons some people select the box pleat style is precisely because it is different from the norm! So perhaps we don't want it becoming too popular!

[lukeyrobertson]

[QUOTE=All that being said, I think that one of the reasons some people select the box pleat style is precisely because it is different from the norm! So perhaps we don't want it becoming too popular![/QUOTE]

Oh yes, Matt that's right. It was one of the reasons I went with the box-pleat. I for one, would not want it to be come "too popular".

Great words, by the way and a fine discussion.

[Grae]

Deledted

[Pleater]

I'm afraid that the Oxford English Dictionary defines a kilt as a Highlander's (usually tartan) skirt from waist to knee, and it is difficult to argue with such an authority.

I saw the last part of a program on Balmoral on TV on Monday evening, and there was a fair bit about the way the kilt was revived by the interest of Queen Victoria, and tartan fabrics and carpets were ordered for the furnishing of the castle the Prince Consort designed for her. The impression given was that the Scots were glad to revive what they could of their scottishness for a queen who regarded herself a Stuart chieftain.

It was interesting to see that men competed in the dancing at Games.

I must see if it available to watch again.

An eight yard knife pleated kilt seems to be the standard for the Victorian revival, but it does seem a pity to regard it as the correct and only option.

When I go to Folk Festivals I sometimes hear people attempting to 'correct' singers who have presumed to sing a song in a version which is not the one someone has recorded. They usually get squashed pretty firmly as there are still many singers around with a tradition of their own who recognise 'song police' when they hear them.

Reserching how older kilts were made, making new kilts in those styles, and even experimenting with variations does hold a fascination for some, and encourages others.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[Phil]

I saw the last part of a program on Balmoral on TV on Monday evening, and there was a fair bit about the way the kilt was revived by the interest of Queen Victoria, and tartan fabrics and carpets were ordered for the furnishing of the castle the Prince Consort designed for her. The impression given was that the Scots were glad to revive what they could of their scottishness for a queen who regarded herself a Stuart chieftain.

It was interesting to see that men competed in the dancing at Games.

I must see if it available to watch again.

The programme is on iPlayer here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00mqg2c/Balmoral/ - if you want to watch the whole thing. It was interesting although much was just a re-hash of snippets from other programmes. It came across very strongly that the likes of Edward VII, and Edward VIII, or at least Mrs Simpson never really took to the place as neither did Princess Diana and the shot of Cherie Blair yawning was a real classic. There has also been speculation that Charles has discussed giving the whole place to the Nation if and when he takes over. Nearby Birkhall is his bolt-hole in the highlands of choice.
But enough of Balmoral and "Balmorality" as described in the programme. Of course anyone is at liberty to redesign anything according to their taste and requirements. I am sure that the lightness of a pleated garment together with cost savings of using less material is bound to be an attractive option for many, particularly in warmer climates. As to soldiers' kilts, knowing our Ministry of Defence and their notorious reluctance to spend money on the well-being and safety of our troops, which has been the subject of much media attention in recent years, penny-pinching of this kind comes as no surprise whatsoever.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I am sure that the lightness of a pleated garment together with cost savings of using less material is bound to be an attractive option for many, particularly in warmer climates.

Yes, and that is precisely what happened. As I said, the modern day revival of the four yard box pleated kilt can be attributed to Bob Martin, who spent most all of his kilt making career in and around Greenville, SC - a much warmer climate that Scotland! As he recounts it, most of his clients were requesting light weight wool for their kilts, because they were afraid the heavy weight would be too hot to wear.

However, as a kilt maker, Bob knew the heavy weight wool to be of superior quality. He was wondering how to convince people living in warmer climates that the heavy weight wool was really the way to go. His friend, Scottish anthropologist and Highland dress enthusiast Michiel MacDonald (and incidentally father of our own resident tartan scholar and hand weaver, Peter MacDonald) recommended that Bob offer the older style of kilt which was box pleated and made from only four yards of cloth. This way he could offer a kilt which has all the advantages of the heavy weight wool, but still be a lighter garment overall.

I have to say it works perfectly for that function!

As to soldiers' kilts, knowing our Ministry of Defence and their notorious reluctance to spend money on the well-being and safety of our troops, which has been the subject of much media attention in recent years, penny-pinching of this kind comes as no surprise whatsoever.

I think you have it wrong here. I don't see how the continued use of box pleated kilts by certain regiments (such as the Camerons and the Seaforths) can be seen as "penny pinching" of any kind. Take a look at the photos of modern-day military box pleated kilts posted a few posts above. These more contemporary kilts were made with a higher amount of cloth and if anything would have cost more to produce than their knife pleated counterparts.

[TheBrus]

Such discussions are a perfect example of why the Scottish Tartans Museum needs a traveling kilts exhibit. Something in the back of a poshly appointed, Volvo 18-wheeler. If we could all see and touch different examples of kilts we might understand them better. For instance, I'm still baffled about the elastic in military box pleated kilts. I'm just having trouble visualizing elastic in a kilt not made for babies, or I just keep thinking Sport Kilt. And I know it's not the same thing, but I can't keep the mental image out of my head.