Scots-Irish

[Lyle1]

As a hyphenated-American (very, very hyphenated), I find the term "Ulster-Scots" to be most convenient. I have several families who came to the American colonies from Ulster in the early 1700's; I refer to those connections as Ulster-Scots. My paternal grandfather was born in Scotland, and his family came to the U.S. in the late 1800's when he was five years old. That grandfather married a women whose parents were born in Ireland (Oh, the horror of it all; I've heard stories.), thus starting a Scotch-Irish (as I heard it called when I was young) line. In the end, it does not really matter what these groups are called, but it is convenient to have separate and easily understood terms for the two groups. I have never had to explain what I meant by Ulster-Scots, and I usually refer to the others as "Scotch & Irish" to preclude the need for a followup explanation.

[Blackrose87]

As a hyphenated-American (very, very hyphenated), I find the term "Ulster-Scots" to be most convenient. I have several families who came to the American colonies from Ulster in the early 1700's; I refer to those connections as Ulster-Scots. My paternal grandfather was born in Scotland, and his family came to the U.S. in the late 1800's when he was five years old. That grandfather married a women whose parents were born in Ireland (Oh, the horror of it all; I've heard stories.), thus starting a Scotch-Irish (as I heard it called when I was young) line. In the end, it does not really matter what these groups are called, but it is convenient to have separate and easily understood terms for the two groups. I have never had to explain what I meant by Ulster-Scots, and I usually refer to the others as "Scotch & Irish" to preclude the need for a followup explanation.

I see, so a mixture of both Irish and Scottish ancestors?
But this is a very different situation to the Ulster-Scots in Ireland. They are descended from the Scottish who came over during the plantation in the 1600s, and have remained in Ulster since and in some circumstances mixing very little with the native Irish there before them.

[creagdhubh]

Very fascinating discussion, thanks gents.

Cheers,

[davidlpope]

I see, so a mixture of both Irish and Scottish ancestors?
But this is a very different situation to the Ulster-Scots in Ireland. They are descended from the Scottish who came over during the plantation in the 1600s, and have remained in Ulster since and in some circumstances mixing very little with the native Irish there before them.

No. Scots-Irish refers to a people group who are genetically "Scots", but who lived in Ireland for a period before emigrating to America. There was very little, if any, intermarriage with the native Irish among this group. They are the exact same group that you are referring to as "Ulster Scots", except they emigrated an additional time to the United States where they acquired the name "Scotch-Irish".

[Blackrose87]

No. Scots-Irish refers to a people group who are genetically "Scots", but who lived in Ireland for a period before emigrating to America. There is very little, if any, intermarriage with the native Irish among this group. They are the exact same group that you are referring to as "Ulster Scots", except they emigrated an additional time to the United States where they acquired the name "Scotch-Irish".

Although this is the proper historical definition of the term 'Scots-Irish', it seems that a few American members use to to refer to their heritage if they have both Irish and Scottish ancestors, even if from different sides of the family.

[McElmurry]

Although this is the proper historical definition of the term 'Scots-Irish', it seems that a few American members use to to refer to their heritage if they have both Irish and Scottish ancestors, even if from different sides of the family.

Yes, but I believe this is the exception that does not disprove the rule.

[davidlpope]

Although this is the proper historical definition of the term 'Scots-Irish', it seems that a few American members use to to refer to their heritage if they have both Irish and Scottish ancestors, even if from different sides of the family.

Perhaps. I just wanted to clear up any confusion that may result from this incorrect usage. Unlike someone describing their heritage as German-Chinese, Scotch-Irish has a very distinct meaning in the US and would almost always be interpreted to mean someone of Ulster Scots ancestry.

[Blackrose87]

Would there be a large 'Scotch-Irish' population in North America?

Given the population of Ulster-Scots in Ireland, I can't imagine much more than 100-200,000 would have immigrated to America?

[Bugbear]

Americans who are aware of their Ulster Scots ancestry refer to themselves as "Scotch-Irish", unless they are better informed than average.

As an aside, the mythology of this people group has reached almost heroic proportions here in the US. My theory is that this is a result of conflating "Scotch-Irish" culture with the "Frontier Culture" which developed in the 18th and 19th century during westward expansion. As a result, most Southerners tend to overemphasize their "Scotch-Irishness" and underemphasize their "Englishness", although the English were the largest ethnic group settling the South, even in the backcountry. Ironically, two of our biggest frontier heroes, Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone, bore French Huguenot and Welsh/English surnames, respectively.

Follow this link to a book on this subject written by a great American, James Webb:
http://www.jameswebb.com/articles/pa...cotsirish.html

I keep meaning to read Webb's book, thanks for reminding us.

Unfortunately, my family had it's own "Scots-Irish" mythology; at some point, latching on to the term without knowing what it really meant. The same is true of the term "Dutch," as I am finding now. Short of drawing blood, and spending all of my money trying to find out what genetics I really have, I really just can't say anymore on a lot of the "ancestral roots," so have begun to look into cultural roots instead.

[thescot]

Would there be a large 'Scotch-Irish' population in North America?

Given the population of Ulster-Scots in Ireland, I can't imagine much more than 100-200,000 would have immigrated to America?

Daid Pope has done an excellent job in explaing much of this.

There is a very large Scotch-Irish population in the US. There were something like 250,000 who immigrated in colonial times, and they seem to have been quite prolific in producing offspring. :-) My great-grandmother was--I think--a third generation Scotch-Irish, and was quite proud to claim the title. Either her father or grandfather was the original Ulster immigrant to North Carolina--where a whole bunch of 'em landed--and you can trace their influence and spread westward pretty easily.

For one thing, the Scottish influence is still observed in the speech patterns of the mountain folk in the use of "a- (uh)-" such as "I'm a-goin' down there." They even tell Jack tales which are identical with those from Scotland. There is also an almost rabid protestant nature among many of these folks and their offspring. Although they thought of themselves as Irish, they did know their heretage and recited it, recorded it, and expanded it over the years.

Blackrose87, I'm pretty sure that the term Scoth-Irish is exclusively American which would explain your not having encountered it before. I have a friend in Arkansas who still proclaims himself a "Scoth-Irish Presbyterian" quite frequently. And one of the greatest history professors I ever had blamed much of the bellicosity of Southerners on their Scotch-Irish roots, roots which he shared.