New Tank!! Dewar tartan.

[Tobus]

Very nice kilt, Shedlock! I was thinking the same thing Matt was. I saw it and thought, "that's a Gordon kilt." The difference is pretty subtle to those who aren't tartan connoisseurs. I'm actually very surprised they chose a tartan that similar to Gordon.

Add in the pleating style (I do prefer the term "military box pleat"), and it really does look like an ex-MOD kilt to 99% of observers. I like it!

But since we're arguing about terminology, this isn't technically a "tank", is it? I thought that term was coined by someone here on this forum and specifically referred to an 8-yard, knife-pleated, hand-sewn kilt. Or am I wrong, and it includes MBP kilts too?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

David,

I am going to try one final time to explain myself, but in the end if you decide you are the expert and want to continue to discount my opinion here, so be it.

And please let it be known that I have no issues whatever with anyone who wants to call this a military box pleated kilt. I'm not saying that term is incorrect, I'm just attempting to explain why I choose not to use it all that often.

All I was wanting to do in this thread was to congratulate the original poster on his new kilt and (since he asked about the pleating style) give him a little more information about it, which I hoped he might find interesting.

In reply I get you saying:

It is a military box pleat kilt. Matt doesn't like that term, but it is what it is, and quite distinct from other box-pleat kilts.

And when I attempt to further explain myself, I get this from you:

Whatever, Matt. The rest of the world knows what a military box pleated kilt looks like

I don't know if your intent is to come across as flippant and condescending, but I am sorry - that is how it reads to me. You are certainly free to disagree with me and call this style of pleating by any name you choose. But please don't act like I am some johnny-come-lately that requires a schooling in proper kilt terminology.

You make several assertions without foundation. By citing Bob Martin, I as attempting simply to show that the use of the term "military box pleat" as shorthand to describe a box pleated kilt made from a full eight yards of cloth is something relatively new and inspired by this forum; and that is was precisely because talk of the older style four yard box pleated kilt had become so common place here that some kind of easy distinction was needed.

Outside of this forum, and those associated with it, especially before the modern revival of the four yard box pleated kilt, a box pleated kilt meant the modern military variety. No other explanations needed.

If you look at Kinloch Anderson's web site, they use the term "box pleat" and "military box pleat" interchangeably.

Buy-a-kilt, one of our own forum advertisers, calls the modern military box pleating style simply "box pleating."

I found this discussion among pipers on the Bob Dunsire forum from 2004 -- when I was first starting to actively promote the four yard kilt -- about box pleats vs. knife pleats. It is clear from the discussion that they all had modern eight yard kilts in mind.

The *only* people I know who consider the "military box pleat" to be an altogether different animal from the box pleat are participants in this forum. Bob Martin did not feel the need to have a different term for the two in 2004. Ruaidri Stuart Erskine (author of The Kilt and How to Wear It) didn't in 1901. Soldiers in the Seaforth and Cameron regiments were quite content to call their kilts box pleated without feeling the need to further explain it.

I'm not saying it is wrong, in this modern context, to call them military box pleated kilts; I'm saying it is also not wrong to call them simply box pleated kilts, and one needn't be corrected for so doing.

I would not call a 4-yard box pleat "historic" without further clarification. The MBP also has history. As for the 6- or 7-yard box pleats, call them whatever you wish. I have never seen one, except in photos which you have posted here.

This completely dodges the question. You have seen them. The OP in this thread has stated he believes his own kilt to be made with about 7 yards of cloth. Lots of the old military kilts from the 20th century were actually made with closer to 6 or 7 yards than 8. All of the kilted figures in the MacLeay Highlander watercolor series from the 1860s are wearing box pleated kilts made from around 5 or 5.5 yards of cloth. Box pleated kilts are out there and in existence made from any and all amounts of cloth from 4 to 8 yards. We need to open our eyes and realize this spectrum.

The danger in too narrowly defining our terms and saying "we are going to call a four yard kilt this, and an eight yard kilt that," is that it leaves out all those kilts that fall somewhere in between. Again, this is why I find referring to a kilt by the style of pleating (box or knife) and the amount of cloth used to be so convenient and precise.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I'm hoping this further educates, rather than further fueling the fire!

David Thorpe wrote:

I would not call a 4-yard box pleat "historic" without further clarification. The MBP also has history. As for the 6- or 7-yard box pleats, call them whatever you wish. I have never seen one, except in photos which you have posted here.

You are correct. The military box pleated kilt has a wonderful history. But that history includes the four yard box pleated kilt.

I hope my friend Bob Martin does not mind that I use a few of his photographs here. I thought it would be helpful to include some of the kilts he documents in his book. These are all kilts that he has been able to see and examine in person, take measurements from, etc.

We'll start with this gem.

This, my friends, is the oldest surviving tailored kilt for which we have a confirmed date. It was made in 1796. It is a regimental kilt, in the Gordon tartan. It is box pleated and is made from exactly 3 yards and 2 inches of cloth.

Next, this B&W photo of a MacKenzie tartan kilt.

This is an undated Seaforth Highlanders military kilt from the early 19th century. It is also box pleated, and is made from 4 yards and 12 inches of cloth.

Continuing forward in history, we have this Cameron kilt.

This is a regimental kilt from the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, from the early 20th century (pre-WWII). It is box pleated, and is made from 6 1/2 yards of cloth.

These are just a few of the photos of kilts he has documented in his book. I was looking just for military kilts, and just for box pleated kilts. There are many more kilts he was able to document but did not publish photographs of. For example, from the Gordon Highlanders Regimental Museum in Aberdeen, a 92nd kilt from 1825 that is box pleated and made from 4 yards, 13 inches of tartan.

While in the Argyle and Sutherland Regimental Headquarters in Sterling Castle, he was able to document the development of their kilt, from the 19th century when they were made with wide box pleats, (from four to five yards of cloth) to 1890 when kilts were made with 13 or 14 box pleats, 1910-15 when they were made with 18 box pleats, 1919 when they were being made with about 20 box pleats, and eventually to 27 to 29 box pleats where they would stay. (The increasing pleat numbers corresponding with an increase in yardage).

From the Queen's Own Highlanders Regimental Headquarters in Fort George, he documents a kilt from 1847 which is box pleated and made from about 4 1/2 yards. There is a kilt c. 1906 which is box pleated and made from 6 1/2 yards of tartan. Also several more modern kilts which are box pleated and made from 6 yards, 7 1/2 yards, and 8 yards.

He documents many civilian kilts that span the same period of 200 years, as well. They show the same trend of increasing yardage as we get closer to the present time.

But speaking just of military kilts, yes, the military box pleated kilt has a great history. That history begins with four yard kilts, includes five yard kilts, six yard kilts and so forth, and concludes today with the eight yard kilt. Again - a spectrum.

[David Thorpe]

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[M. A. C. Newsome]

And now we have the term MBP, commonly and widely understood to mean a box-pleated to the stripe kilt of around 8 yards... All MBPs are box-pleated kilts, but not all box-pleated kilts are MBPs. I find it fascinating that you do not recognize that fact.

Who says I don't recognize that? Certainly not me; have you read the last few post I have made here? I would be quite comfortable in saying that "military box pleated kilt" in a modern context means a box pleated kilt, pleated to the stripe, made from around 8 yards of cloth.

If you think I think differently, then either you have not been reading my posts carefully enough, or I am not expressing myself clearly enough.

[Domehead]

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[David Thorpe]

deleted by poster

[AJBryant]

Matthew, are... are those SUSPENDERS? And buttons?

Man, there is so much about the history of the structure of the kilt that I did not know...

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Matthew, are... are those SUSPENDERS? And buttons?

Man, there is so much about the history of the structure of the kilt that I did not know...

Yes, those are buttons on the kilt. Many early nineteenth century kilts I have seen have had buttons sewn on at the waist for wearing with braces (suspenders). I do not know, however, if the white straps showing at the top of the photo are braces. I doubt it. But yes, braces would have been worn with this kilt.

One feature of many of these early kilts is that there is no tapering at all from waist to hips. In other words, there is no shaping to the kilt, so they don't fit quite as well as we are perhaps used to. Braces would be a welcome aid in keeping the kilt up and in place, and were commonly worn beneath a waistcoat or jacket.

[plaid preacher]

WOW! I'm sure Shedlock never dreamed he was ripping the lid off of Pandora's Box when he decided he would share a couple of photos of his new kilt with us. Would anyone else like to say how nice his kilt is?