What tartan is this?

[Lime]

True, I just find it interesting that a native-born Scot would attach such a traditional kilt pin to a fashion tartan and pass it down through her family, but hey, anything is possible.

Well my wife's grandmother is the current "custodian" of a very old American flapper style dress which is highly valued in the family... everyone is Scottish born and bred as far back as we can remember and, so far as we are aware, none of the family have ever been to America apart from my wife's trip to Disney as a teenager... so yes anything is possible! Come to think of it we really do need to find out where the h**l it came from!

[Nathan]

Traditional kilt pin? Well I suppose it depends on one's viewpoint, but I am not sure that many in Scotland would view them as traditional kilt pins. Sorry

Based on the number of vintage ones for sale on ebay.uk I'd say at least a few people viewed them as a traditional accessory. Her kilt pin is a grouse claw with real sterling silver and a nice topaz and is quite old...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_tr...at=0&_from=R40

[Jock Scot]

Out of interest are there any hallmarks on the silver? If so, and assuming they are British ones, you will find a datemark on it and which city(London, Birmingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh, etc..) put the hallmark on it and possibly who made it.

[Nathan]

Out of interest are there any hallmarks on the silver? If so, and assuming they are British ones, you will find a datemark on it and which city(London, Birmingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh, etc..) put the hallmark on it and possibly who made it.

Next time I see her, I'll take a look again at the hallmarks.

[Nathan]

I cannot help with the tartan, but your comment about the grouse claw pin has had me thinking. "---------an heirloom"? Well of course it is, but "----of significance to their Scottish culture"? Well again, of course it may well be to the person who bought it, to the person who wore it and to their successors, but in general terms, I am not at all sure that a pin such as you describe could be described in general Scottish terms as a significant part of Scottish culture. In fact many of these grouse claw artifacts were worn as brooches. My mother had several as did many ladies of that era and indeed some men wore ---some may still do so---- them as kilt pins, but whilst you can still see them for sale on occasion, they are not the fashion item that they once were. But a cultural item of significance? Hummmm, I am not so sure.

The item has a sterling silver thistle motif on it and a Topaz which is what I meant when I said culturally significant. Perhaps that language would be a bit strong outside of the context of their own familial perception, so If you prefer I could say culturally symbolic. I hope you won't protest the idea that the thistle is a recognizable symbol of Scotland.

Regarding the gender side of things, this item was used to pin a ladies skirt so it can still be culturally significant even if it's mainly a female item. That said, I have heard the grouse claw mentioned as a popular choice for kilt pins in Scotland long before I saw this one. Case in point, when lamenting that my silver kilt pin was a bit fancy for day attire, Darren Purse of local kilt vendor Cairngorum Scottish Imports mentioned both the grouse claw and the antler (stag horn) as popular kilt pin options for day wear over a year ago to me. He's from Scotland his store is a division of William Glen & Son of Callander, Scotland who have been in the Highland attire business since 1869. This isn't the only time I've run across this.

My few occasions could be viewed as the fallacy of the small sample, but a) when the items are listed on auction sites they are being sold as "kilt pins" not "brooches". b) Some of them appear to be quite old. c) They seem unisex in appearance and are a by product of the hobby of hunting fowl.

I don't claim to be an expert on grouse talon pins here, but the item is recognizably, symbolically and historically Scottish, it belonged to a Scotswoman who brought it to Canada from the old country and whose family have passed it down with "Gran's kilt" ever since.

Scotland is a big country with lots of people making lots of fashion choices. I have a photo of myself with a Scottish Highlander in a recent thread. He's wearing a charcoal day tweed, ecru hose, a semi-dress sporran, and a solid coloured tie and flashes that match his kilt.

I've read on here that such choices would never be made in the Highlands... Just sayin'.

In fact, here's that pic along with the skirt in question AND the kilt pin under discussion.

[Jock Scot]

Nathan.

The red grouse is found in particular areas throughout the British Isles, but nowhere else in the world, so it is not a specifically Scottish bird. I have seen grouse claw "pins" for sale in Yorkshire and in Wales. However, it is true I think, that these "pins" are mainly found in Scotland, mainly in the tourist areas of which Callander would be a prime example.

Again it is true, that in the Highlands white hose, flat caps, grouse claw "pins", etc., etc., can be found being worn by someone(often its a tourist, sorry) with the kilt, but that does not make any of these examples standard issue or, standard practice. Getting back to the grouse claw "pin", they are still sold today, but they are not seen often being worn either as a brooch or as a kilt pin, the fashion has moved on. I am sure that my mother's grouse claw brooches are lurking in her jewelry box, ready for the next time the circle of fashion returns and no doubt someone will be very happy that their ancestor was so trendy.

As with any item of civilian attire it is a free world and if we want to wear this, that, or, the other, then we are all able to make a choice. But we , I think, need to be aware that whatever our choice might be, be it a fashion, a fad, a good idea at the time, a never repeated event, a whatever. That still does not make something of cultural significance , or even culturally symbolic. I think it is these subtle things that those outwith Scotland(outsiders of any area in the world actually), with the best of intentions, struggle with and often fail to grasp. This website is littered with such examples.

[xman]

Damn the kilt pin, who's the model?

[English Bloke]

Damn the kilt pin, who's the model?

hehehehehe!

[KenB]

My niece, my wife and I were rummaging thru the Barras Market in Glasgow (very interesting) and my niece purchased a grouse foot pin exactly as you describe. I don't know how old it is but is was in a display case with much stuff that seemed fairly 20's or 30's. Anyway, it is lovely and she wears it frequently.