What would you do?

[JohntheBiker]

Steve,

Part of the appeal of XMarks is that the site generally shares and demonstrates values that are important to me. Change that and this becomes a place that is less civil, less ethical and less credible. Don't mess with your reputation.

Interestingly, I had a pre-existing relationship with two of your advertisers before joining the site. I continue to deal with them because they provide quality, value, client service and I happen to like them. The fact that they advertise on this site says a lot about you and them.

I don't make purchase decisions based on price but rather on value and part of that value proposition includes the ethics and business practices of the seller. That's why I would never purchase anything from America's largest retailer, regardless of price.

As others have indicated, the realm of patents is far less clear. However, I don't believe in appropriating other people's intellectual property and I would really be concerned that a vendor who demonstrates those kinds of values isn't going to be any more ethical in dealing with me.

Thanks for asking the questions.

[RockyR]

As a member who is ALSO an advertiser, I have to walk a fine line. I must often (most times?) keep strong opinions to myself for the greater good and not to be seen as "being unfair to competitors", even if I would think / say things if I wasn't an advertiser / didn't own a kilt company. In this post, I am going to 'pull back the curtain' a little bit on my emotions on certain topics. I hope I am coming across as respectful, but resolute in my stance on certain things. I am not trying to ruffle any feathers, but several topics covered here I do feel passionate about. I apologize in advance for the NOVEL below. Hopefully you've had a cup of coffee and can get through it, should you choose to learn about my stance on Steve's questions.

I have been a member of the forum from months after it's launching 11 years ago and we were the second company to advertise on Xmarks (behind Scotweb). I view myself as a member more than an advertiser (though the opposite argument could be made as well) and I love this forum. When I log onto the interwebs, I do 3 things each time... I check my email, I check my company FB page and I check Xmarks. Over the 11 years this forum has existed, I have seen members come and go and companies come and go. Some of the companies that are gone were let go due to "less than stellar" business practices. That being said, the owners of Xmarks (Steve and Hank before him) have overall done a PHENOMENAL job of vetting potential advertisers to make sure that we only get "top quality" in the areas of product, service, quality, value and ethics. This forum stands as a beacon to those wanting to learn about kilts and highland dress. What most members do not know is that the owners have actively kept several "less reputable" companies from advertising here (and even from BUYING THE FORUM) for the sake of the members. Yes, Xmarks has been "for sale" in the past and Hank declined offers from 2 companies that did not fit his vision for what this forum could / should be. Eventually, Steve made an offer along with a promise to keep the spirit / vision of the forum intact and Hank accepted. I believe that Steve has also been made offers to purchase the forum, but has declined as well.

Step back and think about this...

1. This is a public forum, free to any member, that has existed and thrived for 11 years.
2. Through this forums' often hotly contested policies of "no politics, no guns, just kilts", they have kept things civil and "on topic". Many (most?) forums break down into squabbles and flame wars over disagreements, but Xmarks keeps it civil and respectful. Love or hate the policy, it works.
3. To the above point, this is a place where people of different backgrounds, with different views on life / incomes / educations / etc, can come together and speak about the thing we have grown to love: The Kilt. Whether it's a solid colored contemporary "Utility kilt" style OR the most traditional dress for black tie affairs and the minutia that exists therein, members speak civilly to each other and respect each others opinions and possess the ability to "agree to disagree" when things start to get heated and learn a thing or two in the process.
4. Members here look out for each other. I have personally witnessed, several times, members offering items up as a gift since they no longer fit. No money is exchanged, it's a gift to a new kilt wearer who could not otherwise afford the item. As USA Kilts, we've actually received an order for a $1200 kilt package, paid for by an Xmarks member, as a gift to a young man getting married who wasn't able to purchase (or even rent) a kilt for his wedding. Oh, and I forgot to mention - the member never met the man. It was brokered through our own Father Bill. THAT'S the kind of members we have here.

As a member of this forum who proudly calls it his "internet home" for all things kilts, I would say that I have a vested interest on a personal level (as well as a business level) to ensure that the integrity of this forum, it's members and it's advertisers, is upheld. I have a relatively high standard of what I deem "questionable practices", but I don't think I've ever overstepped bounds by any of my comments (and if I did, I would hope that someone would take me to task on them as I would do the same).

With that in mind, on to Steve's questions.

But what about cases where a company does not have permission to use the photos from another company? If an advertiser here were using photos from someone else, and it could be proven that no permission was granted, would you feel confidant dealing with that company?
Would you want a company who uses photos without permission to be able to advertise here?

No. I do know that it is difficult, especially for those new to "all this kilt stuff" to differentiate from one company to another. That is what certain market forces prey upon. Images are used (i.e. stolen) to represent a different product to hide the differences and make the individual shop on price alone. "If it LOOKS the same and costs 1/2 as much, the more expensive company must be overcharging me, right?" Not necessarily. Most often it's the case that the product with a significantly cheaper price is using the other company's photos. Does the average new kilt wearer know this? No. Is it up to forums like this to educate people? Absolutely.

Is it overreaching then to have a kilt forum, with advertisers who can be held accountable, to forego allowing a company to advertise their wares if they are duping their customers and take that ability to make that decision out of the hands of the forum members? I THINK SO. Forgetting the argument (which could also be valid if Steve ever wanted to exercise it) of "it's my forum, I'll do what I want", if the general membership doesn't recognize a stolen image, but those in the industry do (Steve owns a kilt company and many of the members here are "in the industry"), I would wholeheartedly agree that they should protect the members from those advertisers by not allowing them to advertise (or pulling their advertising if they already do). It's kind of like a parent not putting candy on the supper table with dinner.

How about copyrights and patents? As you may or may not know copyrights and patents are effective only in the countries where they are filed. It may not be against the law to copy a design of another company, with a UK copyright, if you are not operating in the UK.
We have all seen the Utilikilt knock-offs that are sold all over the world. The Utilikilt Company holds a US Patent on their design. Would you feel confidant buying a Utilikilt knock-off from a company operating in a country not covered by that patent?
Would you buy products from such a company and would you want such companies to be able to advertise here?

I know and understand that these questions are of an ethical nature. Business practices vary in different countries. In some countries it is not only completely legal, it is expected, that one company will produce virtually identical products of another company if they are finding that it will sell.

A company doing so is not breaking any laws. This makes my questions a matter of ethics.

Absolutely not. IF I AM MADE AWARE (and that's the problem in many of these cases where the consumer is not aware before making the purchase) that a company is breaking another's copyright / trademark / etc, then I would not purchase from them. I wouldn't "give them a second chance" once they clean up their act. I wouldn't "test them" a second time. I wouldn't "see if things have changed over the years". I have seen several members start threads under the premise of "This company has a horrible reputation up here. I'll order from them and see if I agree and report back". I shake my head when I read this. Why would you risk it? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

At the crux of my thought is the real VALUE of the forum. If others have publicly posted (multiple times) about a negative experience, why would you not learn from their mistakes? If someone says, "I wore my kilt backwards today and looked like a fool and several people commented on it", why would you then say to yourself, "Hmmm... I wonder if I wore my kilt backwards if people would say I looked like a fool too. I think I'll try that".

This forum exists as a knowledge database! Learn from others mistakes.

In the same light, you have a header, side bar and footer, full of quality advertisers who are financially supporting the place online that you choose to "hang out" and chat about kilts. In the grand scheme of things, if people don't buy from those advertisers, the advertisers pull their money. In that case, the forum makes no money. If the forum can't make money from advertisers, it'll either have to broaden it's definition of what companies are 'acceptable (including less reputable ones) to advertise OR it will have to charge members a fee to join. Neither of those options seem good to me as a member.

As an advertiser, I love and appreciate the fact that so many members ARE loyal to the advertisers here and 'get' the point I made above. As a member / advertiser, I often refer our customers to the advertisers here if we don't have something a customer needs. Supporting each other helps to support this community. It's the "buy local" theory, only applied to a virtual community where people choose to go.

So, my final questions are to you, the members of X Marks.
Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard?

Absolutely. I implore the staff of Xmarks to hold the advertisers to a high standard. No theft of images, no copyright infringement, no stealing of tartan designs, no knockoff products. We need our advertisers to be innovators, not companies who copy and steal ideas / designs to make a buck. Support the companies that are promoting highland wear and pushing the industry forward to support the garment we love. We don't need advertisers who are here to exploit the industry for a buck without giving anything back to the culture.

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks?

No, with an asterisk. If they're made aware of the copyright infringements and do nothing about the issue within 48 hours (or ever relapse back to their old ways), they should be considered to be in violation of advertiser ethics policy and not allowed to advertise. Is is customary and "acceptable" to steal images / designs and use them as your own in certain parts of the world? Yes, but why should they get to play by a different set of rules from the rest of the advertisers who try to be more ethical? ALL advertisers on Xmarks should be held to a high standard and if they don't make the cut, they aren't allowed to advertise. WE decide where we set the bar, not someone with a fistfull of cash wanting access to our members.

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder?

Moot point as I wouldn't buy the product at all whether it was lower, higher or the same. If I can't afford the "real deal" one that was the original non copied design, I will either save my pennies or choose to buy another design.

Think of this like the stalls of knockoff handbags in SOHO in NYC or flea markets across the country. People shouldn't buy the cheap knockoff "Coach" or "Louis Vuitton" handbag. If they want the real thing and want people to see how nice their handbag is, why not buy a nice handbag or if you can't afford one, buy one that you can afford (but not a copy / fake one).

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard?

Yes. My bar for this type of thing, as I mentioned at the top of this epic, is very high and I want others to do the same, so I lead by example. I run my company that way and I live my life that way.

[Andrews Son]

I believe this site is spot on as it is. we have respected advertisers here with members who respect them eg great companionship, great ethics and great quality. And the internet is a circus anyway and IMHO should be away from xmarks. But the point is being put across by each member that we want people who put pride in their work, not shady businesses with even shadier practices. I look forward to hearing more comments (please dont let my opinions subjagate yours, if thats the word for it) but sounds like a one-sided fight so far

Gavin

[okiwen]

Admittedly, I read two pages and saw a trend I agreed with and considered I had nothing of value to add. Crazy talk! I ALWAYS add value.

I own and wear Utilikilt. I own, wear, and make traditional. I look to these particular vendors BECAUSE of this site. I don't buy much because money is dear at times, but when I do, this is the first stop.

I don't keep many friends because I have a higher standard for the word then that of acquaintance. I consider some people I've met through Xmarksthescot to be friends. I would expect nothing less than ethical.

[techdragon]

I think that I should also weigh in here, albeit briefly because these issues are a bit to dear to my heart. This is more a voice of myself as an advertiser (Alt.Kilt) and a designer since I do not wear kilts. Business, as of late, has been really hard all around. I do a bulk of my advertising on FB because of a large following there and honestly, dealing with people day in and day out who point out that they can by something "close enough" for 1/2 of your price, gets old quickly. Business is business but I feel as though a strong ethical code should also go with.

If an advertiser here were using photos from someone else, and it could be proven that no permission was granted, would you feel confidant dealing with that company?
Would you want a company who uses photos without permission to be able to advertise here? No and No. I fight this battle all the time and it is hard to participate, let alone win. I also have had to hire my own photographers (at first) and then spend hours later learning to take good photos on my own in order to save the expense. If you are a solid business and this is your passion - you should WANT your own photos.

Would you feel confidant buying a Utilikilt knock-off from a company operating in a country not covered by that patent?
Would you buy products from such a company and would you want such companies to be able to advertise here? No. I understand that the patent is not recognized in many other countries - though I also do see a lot of people ripping it off here in the USA. The hard part with clothing is that it is almost impossible to copyright the design (UK has a variety of aspects in their patent and the only way that they were able to get the pleat layout in there was because it 'significantly changed the functionality of the garment'). I can't patent my box pleats - and honestly, I don't really care if someone out there is making box peat kilts that are similar because there is nothing I can do about it. I have tricks that I use for fitting and personalizing that I hope puts me apart from others. I did a lot of research to make sure that I was not ripping other people off when I started Alt.Kilt in 2006.


Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard? I would, as an advertiser and kilt maker, hope the community here does so.

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks? No.

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder? I, personally, do not buy kilts but I constantly get asked for recommendations and am pleased to recommend quality over price concerns. I do rely on the advertisers here as a base to start people off on the right foot.

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard? I think that ethics should trump price but I also think that quality trumps price.

I hope that helps in the discussion. I am proud to be a member here and I love sharing this resource with other kilt lovers.

[pbutts]

ditto ditto ditto ditto ...... ;-)

I saw the OP last night and I'm just catching up now. Like many I agree whole-heartedly with the general consensus for taking the high road and appreciate the collective wisdom. So here's my two cents' worth--

1) This is a fundamental issue that deserves everyone's input; and

2) When it comes to sponsorship, I would support be da veva's proposal for a Paypal Donation option if the current vendor sponsorship system ever becomes problematic. I spend a fair amount of time on another large BB that has operated that way for over ten years.

[ratspike]

The question of patents and knock-offs kinda left the door wide open to interpretation. Does that mean anyone who makes a reverse Kingussie pleated kilt with pockets and a narrow-ish apron? While IANAL, looking at the patent, I guess it can be fairly said that I make sometimes make Utilikilt knock-offs. Obviously that's not how I feel about it but if the Utilikilt legal department decided to get frisky with me there wouldn't be much I could do about it. Maybe I'll just stick to knife pleats...

Are the questions of patents and knock-offs only referring to the stuff coming from overseas? I think a more clear definition of what's considered okay and what's considered a cheap copy would definitely be in order if there was going to be a line drawn for advertisers.

Would you feel confidant buying a Utilikilt knock-off from a company operating in a country not covered by that patent? Would you buy products from such a company and would you want such companies to be able to advertise here?
If I were going to buy a kilt I definitely would not buy a knocked-off import. They're obvious copies, and that bugs me. On the various forums where I hang out I really prefer to not see ads for vendors who sell blatant copies of someone else's stuff.

Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard?
I think that's already the case here. The bar is set pretty high and I don't think it would be allowed to slip.

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks?
It depends. I don't have any issue with someone who makes a fantastic kilt and gives their customers a great experience, even if it shares some visual characteristics with a Utilikilt. IMO there's only so many ways to make one of these things, and to the average person one cargo/utility style kilt looks a lot like all the others. A flat out copy, like the stuff that Etsy is flooded with, is completely different.

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder?
No.

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard?
Price is always something that I consider when I'm buying something, but I won't support a business whose moral and ethical compass points south just because they're cheaper.

[Chas]

If an advertiser here were using photos from someone else, and it could be proven that no permission was granted, would you feel confidant dealing with that company?
How would I know if permission was granted or not? How can a negative be proved? People who deal in rumour, inuendo and supposition are beneath contempt.

Would you want a company who uses photos without permission to be able to advertise here?
Require all advertisers to supply copyright details for all the pictures, graphics and text that they claim to be theirs. If they can't or won't supply the details, they should be out.

Would you feel confidant buying a Utilikilt knock-off from a company operating in a country not covered by that patent?
Until reading this thread, I was not aware that Utilikilts were patented. I am sure that I am not alone in this. I have seen many utility kilts, but cannot tell one from the other, so how do I know if one is a knock-off or not?

Would you buy products from such a company and would you want such companies to be able to advertise here?
I do not know, what I don't know, so how can I know if I am buying from one of these companies or not?

Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard?
I do not know what this means. Higher than what standard or who's standard?

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks?
Were there not a vast number of sports shoe manufacturers involved in just this scandal about 15 years ago? I am talking about multi-billion dollar companies, but in the end they broke no laws.

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder?
How would I know who the copyright holder is?

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard?
Price, linked to quality are the overriding factors. I seek value for money in all things I purchase.

Ethics is an almost impossible thing to pin down - everybody has their own private standards and moral compass and they are far from universal and far from being the same.
Whereas the law is the law. We might not like it, but it is the framework which shapes all our lives. A man can be as ethical as he likes, but what happens when the law requires him to take a contrary action? Does he stick with his ethics or does he follow the law? Would we be happy buying from an ethical criminal?
I think it is a slippery slope setting an artificially high standard that others have to follow.
It is wrong to allow the general membership to be sinners, but insist that the vendors be saints.

[orionpyoung]

In an ideal world, yes, no, no and yes. But practicly speaking, if you need more revenue to support the site then do what you must to keep the community alive. If you needed to include sub par vendors then the "XMTS, X of Approoval" idea would be a great way of maintaining the ethics we all support.

Also, I would love to see a donate button at the top of the page! Perhaps even an indicator of how much support is coming from the community.

[Steve Ashton]

Would everyone please understand that my reason for asking these questions is not that I need more money. I am not out beating the bushes for more advertisers. In fact I don't seek out advertisers at all.

I would much prefer that advertisers come here because they realize that if you are in the kilt business this is the place to be.

Thank you for the suggestions and offers to help financially with paid memberships but that is not what this thread is about either. I have never considered, and can think of no way, that paid memberships will ever be a part of X Marks.

The single best way to support this community is by being an active and participating member. Support those who advertise here when you can with your dollars, but support your fellow members with your posts.

My only reason for starting this thread is to get a better feeling for where you think the future of the forum should be.

Of course I could accept Google ads. I could also accept any of the companies that do approach me on an almost weekly basis. So I started this thread to gauge your feelings on what is important to you when it comes to accepting a new or continuing an existing advertiser.



As this forum has grown over the years it has become a 'voice' in the kilt world. I know for a fact that all of the big manufacturers and suppliers and weavers do know about us. They may not be advertisers here but almost all of them have one company representative who is a member here.
The world is listening.

I just need to know what you feel you want our voice to say.




I will have to give some more thought to a Donate button. There have been more than a few cases where a member had his kilt stolen or where a kilt was given to a member in a "Pay-it-forward" way.
There is a built in feature of the vBulletin software for this.
Perhaps a member supported program that would put aside a small "kitty" of funds to help out a fellow member would have merit. I owe it to all of you first to find a way to insure that any such 'kitty' were handled in a responsible and transparent manner.