McIntyre tartan

[davidlpope]

Is it insecurity that causes some of those from outwith these shores to delve so earnestly into their past? Again, is it insecurity that these distant connections to past times, long gone now, that so much is made of them? I think probably so.I find it strange that the Canadians and Americans that I have met are immensely proud of their country, but they above all other nations have this need to cling to the past. The same goes for other nationalities that I have met, there is still this need, but markedly less so and they too are proud of their respective countries and quite right too, but this rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here.

Jock,

Upon reflection, I think there are several different things going on.

1. My experience is that the large majority of Americans who do go in for kilt-wearing, "Scottish-ness", etc. are a subset of Americans who are interested in their own genealogy and family history. So, you're likely getting a very skewed sample on XMarks. Rest assured that there are plenty of Americans who don't know, care, or give a second thought to their ancestry beyond maybe who their grandparents were. Internet genealogy has increased the number of genealogical hobbyists, but it's still a small number, usually only one person out of a large, extended family.

2. That said, there is a group of people whose hobby is genealogy/lineage societies/military re-enacting, etc. Beyond that group is another group of folks who do Ren Faire/Steampunk. I find that folks in these two hobby groups also tend to be into "Scottish-ness". In other words, it's not uncommon to find someone here in NC who is a member of the St. Andrew's Society, Sons of the American Revolution, Sons of Confederate Veterans, a Rev War reenactor, and officer in their clan society. In fact that's the norm, rather than a deviation.

3. I think that most folks who are intrigued/captivated by history in general, and their family's past specifically, aren't desperate. They're simply "history nerds"*. This is what they're into, as others might be into cycling or fishing or model train collecting.


*I accept and embrace the adjective "history nerd".

[kilted scholar]

This is with reference to Jock's comments about what he regards as (sorry) insecurity on the part of those Americans who are interested in their ancestry.

I am not an American so I have no personal interest in the case, although I did live there for many years. However, I am aware of many people in the UK who are also interested in their ancestry and are in the process of investigating it. That there are not so many in the UK doing this is in part attributable to the fact that the population of the USA is nearly six times greater.

However, there is a wider point. Many cultures make their ancestry an integral part of their world. This is so in Asia. It is also true closer to the West. This is not an entry on religion but, knowing Jock is not a churchgoer or overly familiar with religious matters, it should be noted that the Bible is stacked full of genealogical records, ancestors traced back for centuries. This was necessary for the priesthood, in order to establish its roots from Aaron, but it had much wider reference as well.

Far from being an aberration, which should provoke bemusement and pity, an awareness of where it is from which we have come is recognized widely throughout the world, and has been over the centuries, as a necessary ingredient for life in the present. The bemusement, may I suggest, should be directed instead towards those who are ignorant of roots and who cannot understand why this knowledge should be sought, for this more than anything is the aberration.

"Nescire autem quid ante quam natus sis acciderit, id est semper esse puerum. Quid enim est aetas hominis, nisi ea memoria rerum veterum cum superiorum aetate contexitur?" Not to know what happened before you were born is to be a child forever. For what is the age of man, except it be interwoven with that memory of ancient things of a superior time? Cicero, Ad Brutum, 34:120

[Jock Scot]

This is with reference to Jock's comments about what he regards as (sorry) insecurity on the part of those Americans who are interested in their ancestry.

I am not an American so I have no personal interest in the case, although I did live there for many years. However, I am aware of many people in the UK who are also interested in their ancestry and are in the process of investigating it. That there are not so many in the UK doing this is in part attributable to the fact that the population of the USA is nearly six times greater.

However, there is a wider point. Many cultures make their ancestry an integral part of their world. This is so in Asia. It is also true closer to the West. This is not an entry on religion but, knowing Jock is not a churchgoer or overly familiar with religious matters, it should be noted that the Bible is stacked full of genealogical records, ancestors traced back for centuries. This was necessary for the priesthood, in order to establish its roots from Aaron, but it had much wider reference as well.

Far from being an aberration, which should provoke bemusement and pity, an awareness of where it is from which we have come is recognized widely throughout the world, and has been over the centuries, as a necessary ingredient for life in the present. The bemusement, may I suggest, should be directed instead towards those who are ignorant of roots and who cannot understand why this knowledge should be sought, for this more than anything is the aberration.

"Nescire autem quid ante quam natus sis acciderit, id est semper esse puerum. Quid enim est aetas hominis, nisi ea memoria rerum veterum cum superiorum aetate contexitur?" Not to know what happened before you were born is to be a child forever. For what is the age of man, except it be interwoven with that memory of ancient things of a superior time? Cicero, Ad Brutum, 34:120

On the contrary, I absolutely applaud the interest of knowing about ones roots. It is the two hour lecture to strangers who may not be altogether interested in other people's roots that I question.The Scots just do not take a general interest in knowing about other people's ancestry and generally prefer to keep their own ancestry within their own close family. That is the Scot's way.

Whilst, that process is ongoing I do question , as was Alan , how anyone who is, for example, a Scot living in Applecross as did his parents and Grandparents with a Great, Great, Grand parent from say, Norway, can claim to be Norwegian. That does stretch credence more than somewhat in my book.

[Jock Scot]

Jock,

Thanks for your post. A few follow-up questions:

What, exactly, do you intend to communicate when you say to someone, "I am Jock Scot from Scotland"? Does it mean the same thing if the speaker is a native of Spain, recently immigrated, naturalized, and living in Dundee?

Does "I am Jock Scot from Scotland" communicate a different message than "I am Jock Scot, a Scot"?

David, I have had a hard day and cannot answer you questions sensibly at present, I will get to them after a long bath and a good night's sleep.

[MacKenzie]

Jock,

Upon reflection, I think there are several different things going on.

1. My experience is that the large majority of Americans who do go in for kilt-wearing, "Scottish-ness", etc. are a subset of Americans who are interested in their own genealogy and family history. So, you're likely getting a very skewed sample on XMarks. Rest assured that there are plenty of Americans who don't know, care, or give a second thought to their ancestry beyond maybe who their grandparents were. Internet genealogy has increased the number of genealogical hobbyists, but it's still a small number, usually only one person out of a large, extended family.

2. That said, there is a group of people whose hobby is genealogy/lineage societies/military re-enacting, etc. Beyond that group is another group of folks who do Ren Faire/Steampunk. I find that folks in these two hobby groups also tend to be into "Scottish-ness". In other words, it's not uncommon to find someone here in NC who is a member of the St. Andrew's Society, Sons of the American Revolution, Sons of Confederate Veterans, a Rev War reenactor, and officer in their clan society. In fact that's the norm, rather than a deviation.

3. I think that most folks who are intrigued/captivated by history in general, and their family's past specifically, aren't desperate. They're simply "history nerds"*. This is what they're into, as others might be into cycling or fishing or model train collecting.

And there is no shortage of people/groups/organizations in Scotland whose interest or mission is to preserve and promote the history of Scotland and it's people* - all the way back to the Bronze Age. Here in the states we just can't go back to the heavy metal ages without getting our feet wet.

*Interesting that most incorporate some form of the kilt or tartan into their "reinactment" attire.

[Jack Daw]

I'm fascinated by the Scots fascination with the Canadian/American fascination with "our past". The American past is relatively short and our culture is rather new. Our culture is a mish-mash/green salad/melting pot of different cultures from many countries. From my POV, I've wanted to know since I was a kid the reason(s) WHY my ancestors came here and didn't stay in the Old World. In some lines, I have found out, and am still searching others. But, I'm not clinging to the past, I just want to know who came before me. Genealogy is a legitimate hobby, mind! I like history/anthropology, and genealogy helps to personalize history. I don't think this hobby is all that odd. Some people collect bottle openers; I collect dead ancestors.

[neloon]

David,
Focussing on your paragraph 2 (post 21), we (in the UK) simply find all of this weird and, in some degree, unsettling for reasons that we are not allowed to discuss here. But then, most British people find many aspects of US life disturbing - a nightmare rather than a dream - and Scots do not relish "Scottish-ness" being incorporated into this narrative. Obviously, you would not see it that way especially living where you live. Furthermore, one is aware from friendships (we meet many from over the pond in this oil-boom neck of the woods and my daughter's university has many US students) that most US citizens see both Scotland and the US in a new way when they are living here. Hopefully, XMarks may also assist mutual understanding.

Alan

[Jock Scot]

Jock,

Thanks for your post. A few follow-up questions:

What, exactly, do you intend to communicate when you say to someone, "I am Jock Scot from Scotland"? Does it mean the same thing if the speaker is a native of Spain, recently immigrated, naturalized, and living in Dundee?

Does "I am Jock Scot from Scotland" communicate a different message than "I am Jock Scot, a Scot"?

I think you are in danger of overthinking all this, but the " I am Jock Scot from Scotland" would be just a way of introducing myself to a stranger and it means exactly what it says. " I am Jock Scot" and "I am from Scotland". If I lived in London for example I might introduce myself as "Jock Scot, from London".

If Pedro Gonzales introduced himself as coming from Madrid or Dundee matters not really, its just a way of "breaking the ice".

[Steve Ashton]

May I gently remind those responding to the thread that the OP's question was about the name McIntyre and if there was a Tartan. That question was answered.

For those who wish to continue to talk on other topics may I ask that you start your own thread.

[OC Richard]

How can you possibly be Scottish - you are a US American

It's just common Colonial shorthand.

Somebody will self-identify here saying "I'm Irish" or "I'm German" or what have you, and we know it's not a claim of being a citizen of a foreign country. It's just faster than saying "I'm a US citizen of Irish ancestry".

Unlike most people in Britain, 99% of us came to our current hemisphere of abode from somewhere else within a few generations.

At least around here, when someone was born elsewhere they'll say "I'm from Ireland" or "I'm from Germany".

In contrast to someone saying "my family came from Ireland" which indicates that they're born here. (It's said the same whether the family came here in 1750, or 1850, or 1950.)