A question for our Irish kiltie brothers

[porrick]

Tradition is one of those interesting words in that is there really a fixed period of time that something is done before it can be called "traditional."?

New traditions are being created from older Celtic ones and that's surely a good sign.

I totally agree with this statement.

Just to push the point: the traditional kind of trousers for (also) Norwegian teen-agers is blue-jeans, made popular by the import of Levi's some decades ago. Blue jeans is by many considered traditional work clothes.
The USA is through Levi's and other similar companies regarded as the home/origin of the mentioned garment.

I don't think there are any issues about non-Americans wearing the aforementioned garment.

Who has a right to claim a garment design can not be adopted in other places than its place of origin?

Today, blue jeans are as Norwegian as American in my country.

I just wonder...

[flairball]

Still more good replies popping up. Thanks to all who contributed. I'm glad to see this has become a thought provoking thread, and not a bunch of bashing.

Porrick, I understand your position about Levi's being basically universal now, and cultures adopting elements of other cultures, but that is not the case here. Levi's have been widely adopted in Norway. Levi's have also been widely adopted in Ireland, but the kilt has not. So, how does it have any cultural significance? I'm not implying that Irish/ Irish Americans shouldn't wear it. I'm just trying to understand the cultural connection for those who wear it for cultural reasons.

Anyway, Eveyone should wear a kilt. Reasons are not needed to look sharp, and be comfortable.

[Colin]

Still more good replies popping up. Thanks to all who contributed. I'm glad to see this has become a thought provoking thread, and not a bunch of bashing.

I completely agree. Despite claims of overmoderation from us moderators, I don't think we do too much at all. We have a great membership built on mutual interest and respect.

[Chef]

I don't think the blue jeans anology works.

Blue jeans were more of a fashion phenomina rather than culture. I don't think many in the US see blue jeans as a symbol of American culture, as much as they might see it as a symbol of American fashion that has since gone global.

[macwilkin]

One comparison that I neglected to mention earlier in the thread is a similar adoption of the pipes; Look how many nations have adopted the pipes and the pipe band, another well-known Scottish innovation? (even though the bagpipe did not orginate in Scotland). Many nations with ties to the old British Empire, such as India, Mayalasia, Pakistan, Nepal (and her Gurkhas)etc. have adopted pipe bands in their military forces, and there are thousands of civilian pipe bands around the world, from Argentina to Sweden to Hong Kong to Jordan and Oman.

Cheers,

Todd

[PiobBear]

One comparison that I neglected to mention earlier in the thread is a similar adoption of the pipes; Look how many nations have adopted the pipes and the pipe band, another well-known Scottish innovation? (even though the bagpipe did not orginate in Scotland). Many nations with ties to the old British Empire, such as India, Mayalasia, Pakistan, Nepal (and her Gurkhas)etc. have adopted pipe bands in their military forces, and there are thousands of civilian pipe bands around the world, from Argentina to Sweden to Hong Kong to Jordan and Oman.

Including the Óglaigh na hÉireann; the Irish Defence Forces of the Republic of Ireland.

[macwilkin]

Including the Óglaigh na hÉireann; the Irish Defence Forces of the Republic of Ireland.

I aleady mentioned them. :mrgreen: See my earlier posts.

T.

[Ayin McFye]

Ok, if the Levi / Blue Jeans analogy didn't work, let's use the Cowboy hat for instance. I think that if an Egyptian field worker decides to start wearing a cowboy hat for whatever reason, and his or her friends like it and start wearing it and then five generations later everyone is wearing a cowboy hat in Egypt, it could be considered an American origin, but since it's been in use for so long by this point, it might be incorporated into their culture as well.

Just because something has been happening for so long the way it is, doesn't mean it can't change and evolve into something else. I don't think anyone here is really saying that Ireland invented kilts, but a decent percentage (i know not all of ireland) has adopted the kilt. They wouldn't have created a tartan for every county in Ireland, if they didn't want it somewhat part of their culture.

We have a tartan for most the states in the US but it's not technically part of our culture yet, but maybe it will be in 5-6 generations.

[porrick]

I don't think the blue jeans anology works.

Blue jeans were more of a fashion phenomina rather than culture. I don't think many in the US see blue jeans as a symbol of American culture, as much as they might see it as a symbol of American fashion that has since gone global.

Ah, depends on the vantage angle, and others may think so. It really depends what the objective of the analogy is. The point was to show that the presence of a garment has become "tradition" in a given country in a mere 40 or so years - an example to illustrate McClef queriyng how many years does it take to create a tradition.

I don't want to start an off-topic discussion, but I do not see how one can distinguish fashion from culture.

[Chef]

I don't want to start an off-topic discussion, but I do not see how one can distinguish fashion from culture.

I certainly agree that fashion and culture overlap a great deal, but in the context of this discussion I think the differing factor is national identity. The reason I don't believe that blue jeans, or cowboy hats for that matter, can be compared to kilts is because of who identifies with them.

In Scotland whether a person wears them or even likes them I would bet that a VERY large majority of Scots consider the kilt a mark of their culture and heritage. I don't believe that blue jeans or cowboy hats would have the same near universal identity in the US. Granted it's not a fair fight,because of immigration. Many in this country don't see their heritage in the cowboy mystique since over 1/2 of the current population is descended from immigrants who came after the time of the cowboy.

It may become a tradition in time for Kilts to be worn in other nations, but it is unlikely that those traditions will ever hold a national identity the way the Kilt does in Scotland.