Is the name 'Harding' Scottish?

[Don Patrick]

Don,

I'll e-mail you a copy of it. Did you get the other info I sent you?

Jim,

I did, Sorry for taking so long to respond. I sent answers and other information this AM. I had to find my info. I'm thinking seriously about using Adobe Acrobat to tie each family's information into one Adobe file.

[gilmore]

I was thinking about Mark Hardin, Baron of Calenknowles, who is on the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs and on the Scottish Armiger council (whatever its official name is). He married a girl from my hometown, lived in Atlanta, and now lives somewhere in the Carolina mountains.
I was not sure of the family origins (I NEVER looked it up).

Properly speaking, the person mentioned is not a baron, but the holder of a feudal barony. There is a vast difference.

A baron is the holder of a rank, the lowest, in the peerage of the United Kingdom. The holder of a feudal barony is the owner of a hereditable entitlement, much, much lower in social standing, that does nothing more than allow him to be called the holder of a feudal barony. Our own Hamish also purports to be part owner of a feudal barony.

Feudal baronies are a curious anomaly left over from the previous method of owning land in Scotland. Some land owners, called lairds, NOT lords, held their land directly from the king in medieval times (and a few from greater landholders.) In short, in the Middle Ages they were what landlords were called in Scotland. They also had the right to be called to parliament when it was convened.

All that has changed. The feudal parliament of Scotland has not been summoned in several hundred years. (The current parliament of devolved Scotland is something else entirely.) When land that was a feudal barony was sold, the holding of the feudal barony went with it. In fact owning the caput, which could be as small as the hearth of the main house, constituted owning a feudal barony. A market evolved in which those whose families had owned them for years sold them to those who wished to be known as lairds or holders of feudal baronies. In fact, it is still going on. See http://www.baronytitles.com/forsale/ where anyone can buy his very own feudal barony. One such person is a Chinese-American dentist or doctor living in Florida. Another is a Lars Lindberg, a Norwegian, who recently petitioned Lord Lyon for the grant of a coat of arms and was refused, the reasoning being that the mere holding of a feudal barony by a non-Scot is not sufficient for even granting arms. See http://www.baronytitles.com/forsale/...g-hearing.html

(There are also companies that will sell you an English lordship of a manor, should you have more money than sense.)

The Abolition of Feudal Tenures Act of 2000 standardized the way land is owned in Scotland, made it uniform, and abolished any connection that the holder of a feudal barony has with the land. See http://www.scotland.gov.uk/deleted/l...10/afs2-01.htm

The reason given for not abolishing the holding of feudal baronies was that since they can be traded on the open market, their owners would have the right to re imbursement from the government. So now they are just free floating pieces of paper, the ownership of which are not even recorded or established by law anywhere.

For a thorough discussion of this issue, see

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.t...eudal+baronies

and

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.t...ttish+baronies

[MacWage]

OK, my spelling started this mess, so HERE are links to who I am talking about:
General- http://www.houseofharden.com/cowdenknowes/
The Barony- http://www.houseofharden.com/cowdenknowes/history.htm

From THAT site:
"The Barony today, is in the possession of the Harden Family. The first Harden to hold the Title was Barry George Harden (As recognized by Letters Patent from the Lord Lyon, King of Arms). Barry was born 1945 to William Harden, of Gillingham, Kent, a Decorated longtime member of the Royal West Kent Regiment. In August of 2006, The Barony was passed down to the current and 16th Baron, Mark Harden of Cowdenknowes ( View Armorial Achievements and Heraldry of the Harden's of Cowdenknowes)."

As to the validity/relevance of a barony, I'll leave THAT up to the parties here.

Mark's heraldry:
http://www.houseofharden.com/cowdenk...n_heraldry.htm

Mark, however, wears the feathers and works with Lord Lyon, SO I assume he knows SOMETHING about it and has "rights" to what he claims.

I'm OFF THIS THREAD NOW!

Also:
The mention of the Standing Council was off my memory. I am not sure if that is correct or not. I THINK it is correct, but am not sure. If wrong, I appologize for my mis-information.

[gilmore]

...Mark, however, wears the feathers and works with Lord Lyon, SO I assume he knows SOMETHING about it and has "rights" to what he claims.

I'm OFF THIS THREAD NOW!

Having the right to do something and whether it is appropriate to do so by the mores and standards in which one finds oneself are two quite different things.

Best wishes,

The Venerable Gelong, Konchog Dorje, Juris Doctor

[MacWage]

OK, I HAVE to say one more thing.
The WHOLE discussion on whether the Harden baron would be appropriate in wearing an eagle feather has NOTHING to do with the origin of Harding. I was just pointing one avenue for him to look.

As for Mark Harden, he is morally and appropriate to wear the feathers, as is his "baron bailey" (a friend of mine, commonly nicknamed "Baron MacBubba"). As Harden WORKS with the person who handles heraldic matters for the Scottish world, he would have to be AN IDIOT to do it WRONG. Harden is NOT, so I don't question it!
(His OWN views on heraldry: http://www.houseofharden.com/cowdenk...raldryhome.htm )
He wore one in Greenville walking NEXT TO Romilly Squire (Heraldic Artist to the Lyon Courtand) ON STAGE DURING a presentation of heraldic honors to the Sinclair chief!
http://www.houseofharden.com/cowdenknowes/romilly.htm

Therefore, I ASSUME he has ALL moral, legal, and all legit RIGHTS to wear feathers!

[Don Patrick]

OK, my spelling started this mess, so HERE are links to who I am talking about:
General- http://www.houseofharden.com/cowdenknowes/
The Barony- http://www.houseofharden.com/cowdenknowes/history.htm

From THAT site:
"The Barony today, is in the possession of the Harden Family. The first Harden to hold the Title was Barry George Harden (As recognized by Letters Patent from the Lord Lyon, King of Arms). Barry was born 1945 to William Harden, of Gillingham, Kent, a Decorated longtime member of the Royal West Kent Regiment. In August of 2006, The Barony was passed down to the current and 16th Baron, Mark Harden of Cowdenknowes ( View Armorial Achievements and Heraldry of the Harden's of Cowdenknowes)."

As to the validity/relevance of a barony, I'll leave THAT up to the parties here.

Mark's heraldry:
http://www.houseofharden.com/cowdenk...n_heraldry.htm

Mark, however, wears the feathers and works with Lord Lyon, SO I assume he knows SOMETHING about it and has "rights" to what he claims.

MacWage,

I have to admit that if the Lord Lyon, King of Arms has said it so, that should make it sufficent. That is about as high as you can get in the scheme of things. He is the one who has the right to officially recognize a new clan chief or not recognze him. I understand there is here is no higher authority in this matter.

I don't think it right to let you bow out that easy. We do need your thoughts in these matters. I suspect Gilmore owes you an apology - I'll apologize in his behalf. I've got strong shoulders.

[MacWage]

MacWage,

I have to admit that if the Lord Lyon, King of Arms has said it so, that should make it sufficent. That is about as high as you can get in the scheme of things. He is the one who has the right to officially recognize a new clan chief or not recognze him. I understand there is here is no higher authority in this matter.

I don't think it right to let you bow out that easy. We do need your thoughts in these matters. I suspect Gilmore owes you an apology - I'll apologize in his behalf. I've got strong shoulders.

In reality, this whole discussion is more appropriate under the "Feathers" thread elsewhere on the forum.
We can continue over there, if you like.
However, the whole matter is "off-topic" in this thread.

[ardchoille77]

the name hardy is actually under clan farquharson, but clan harding may be a variation of hardy which is under farquharson, but not sure.

Ard Choille

Mike

[sporranlegionaire]

I hadn't realised this thread was still ticking over as the theme seemed to have exhausted itself much earlier on. I just found it all again with the extra posted additions...the most spooky one being the link mentioning, around the time of the Domesday Book, the branching out of Hardings from Derbyshire to the village of Combe Martin, North Devon...
Out of the thousands of UK places to relocate our family in the early fifties, my parents chose of all places...Combe Martin. That is weird.
Although there appear to be a number of similar names - Hardy, Harden, etc, and their derivations, along with Harding, largely based on the description of physically fit folk (strong, hard), these differences in spelling don't seem to have any connection with Harding. Or maybe they do.
Although Harding is now recorded as being an English name, I suspect that this is because Hardings over time settled and regenerated themselves more in England than Scotland...
However, quoting one of the snippets of information at a link that someone has kindly provided 'The family name Harding emerged as a Scottish clan or family in this northern territory of Derbyshire where they were recorded as a family of great antiquity seated with manor and estates in that shire'.
...then further on followed the mention that some Hardings ended up in Combe Martin (including us!).
There must be thousands of Hardings in the world now who have descended from the original Vikings of the same name who settled in the northern extremeties of Scotland, and the idea and sentiment of that is good enough for me, for now.