Kilted encounter with my city's finest

[LANCER1562]

I have worked in the Public Safety/ Private Security field for the past 25 years and have approached several people, especially at the apartment complexes that I patrol, the same way as Streetcar's hypothetical library employee and very rarely have I gotten a rude or defensive response. On the rare occasion that I did receive attitude from the person I explained that I was trying to keep everyone on the property safe including the person I was contacting.

I have found it's all in the approach. I try to treat people the way I would want to be treated if the roles were reversed.

LEOs have a very dangerous job and unfortunately it's very easy for them to fall into the attitude of "everyone's a suspect until proven otherwise".

[Paul]

It's ashame that police seem to question the most innocent people - simply because they have nothing better to do.

[dfmacliam]

Let's be real honest now, I have been in law enforcement, and I know those of you who are in the field know that not all officers have the same approachment style... We all know the easy going guy, the looking for a situation guy, the over anxious guy, even the pick up the chicks guy. There are so many personalities who wear the badge. Sometimes we encounter the more ethusiasism than needed guy..
Sometimes the guy had a fight with a co worker/wife/sgt/ whoever, and he had attitude.. afterall, police are people too.. He could have been a rookie.. or the possibilities are endless.. It's all possible. The civilian is not always the aggressive one, I am not assuming he was... I frankly do not know... I was not there.. But because I worked the field.. I know you cannot assume the cop was right, and the civilian is wrong. I am not going to assume that the civilian warranted that kind of approachment.. all I can say is... there are two sides of every coin.

sorry for the way my original post was all spread out... I was on my phone and my thumbs kept hitting my enter key....LOL

[Streetcar]

I think it's different if the person is not a cop. They would be forced to be more polite by their lack of authority. It might not hurt if the cop took that attitude and at least pretended to be asking like a normal citizen. In some places they do, you know.

I'm not trying to get into any argument. I can tell you from personal experience that some people are under the false belief that police officers do NOT have the basic rights that every citizen has - such as walking up and talking to someone.

I remember one night seeing a beautiful custom motorcycle parked in front of an outdoor coffee stand. There were a couple obvious motorcycle riders there (helmets, leather, etc.) so with a slight grin on my face, I asked, "Who owns this bike?"
I was immediately met with, "I didn't break any laws so I don't have to tell you s**t!"
I said, "No you don't. I was just curious if you did the work yourself and what you started with."

As I started to walk away, one of the other riders persuaded the first one to talk to me about his bike.

So I guess my "authority" to talk to this guy? It was the same "authority" he had to talk to me, or any of you has to talk with anyone you happen to see.

I realize this is drifting from Kilts, and I apologize.

Hector, I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with your local police. But based on your story, I don't think the officer originally intended it to be negative.

[Bigkahuna]

Heck, I got pulled over by a police officer in Time Square for a " routine Security Check". I was surprised but cooperative and as a New Yorker slightly impressed. He checked my license and registration, looked in my car at my big greyhound fast asleep in the back and said I could go. That was it.

[ChubRock]

Innocent until proven guilty. Sounds like communication breakdown between gentlemen. It is amazing how quickly things like this turn into arrests with trumped up charges. Cool heads prevail.

Will you eat lunch there tomorrow? Filet O'Fish or the new Mushroom and Swiss Angus Burger from MCDs?

[EagleJCS]

Hospitaller, was it a Metro officer or Anchorage PD? The Anchorage guys are generally known to be a little more aggressive in general, although the newer Metro officers also tend to be on the aggressive side. There have been times I've been in my Scout uniform and had police officers stop and ask what I was doing in a particular place (just supervising a group of Scouts doing a community service project).

I don't want to start an argument or imply anything with the following, just making some observations.

Since there's a police sub(?)station in the immediate vicinity, they will be more likely to take note of vehicles/persons making a regular appearance and pay more attention to those vehicles/persons.

It could be that someone else (maybe the restaurant manager/employee, or a library employee, or a library patron, or just Joe Citizen) took notice and became concerned about your sitting in your car nearly every day, and asked the police to check you out. Some people have gotten very skittish about such things post 9/11, and some people are skittish due to other events in their lives (maybe a past stalking victim, etc.).

Without hearing your tone of voice and seeing your facial expression, it is difficult to determine whether you were simply making civil replies to their questions, being circumspect (evasive?), or being flippant. The words you used could be interpreted differently based on the non-verbal cues we lack in this medium. Since they don't know you, or your job, or anything else about you, they have to be cautious, and some of the language you used, while made in a civil/courteous tone of voice, could be misinterpreted as being circumspect and/or hostile.

[Macleod91]

absolutely love the way you handle this, not much more to say lol

Tony

[BobsYourUncle]

Most people aren't used to being questionned by the police. If we act a little annoyed, it's just because we aren't doing anything wrong!

I had a recent experience myself with police questioning. There are a lot of homeless people near where I work, and I am forever giving them money. One evening after work I rounded a corner and met a panhandler I already knew. As I was handing him some cash, a couple of cops sprang out from nowhere and one of them started asking questions, while the other one brandished a gun.

I was asked for ID and showed it, but told him I didn't think he could demand ID. He wanted to know where I worked and all kinds of other things, including my social security number. I told him I didn't think he had a right to ask that either, but gave it anyway because I wasn't sure. When I said I worked in a law firm he quoted a precedent at me to supposedly justify all this, but when I checked it turned out not to be relevant. Of course, he's a cop, not a lawyer, so no surprise there, but I suspect he knew it didn't allow him to do these things. I'm a patent agent, so not an ace on the criminal side of the law myself.

As Hospitaller obviously already knew, US law only requires that you provide ID if you are in a vehicle, and not otherwise. Apparently, also, I only had to tell him my name and address, and no other info, certainly no social security number or place of employment. I know this now.

I wasn't attired in a kilt, but I do have waist length hair and a beard. It is obvious that the cops first thought that I was buying drugs from the homeless guy. Why they had that particular spot staked out is a mystery, though. If they thought someone was dealing drugs on that corner, then it's pretty clear they had no description.

Maybe some of you are cops. Please be aware that the average person can get a bit irritated when there is suddenly someone waving firearms at us and asking inane questions, and we haven't done anything. If that annoys you, remember it cuts both ways.

Just a point or two in the interests of accuracy in this thread. "Average people" often don't know what the police can and cannot do, and don't have a frame of reference for how to handle contact with law enforcement. Contact with law enforcement, even when the "average person" is going about their lawful business, can be inherently intimidating, and is quite different from contact with another civilian, inasmuch as the law enforcement officer has the power to incarcerate you or use deadly force. I am qualified to weigh in here--I am a lawyer and a judge.

Firstly, in most jurisdictions, the police have a right of inquiry--they may stop you in a public place, and ask for identification and basic information, all without needing any "reasonable suspicion" or probable cause. An actual search may require a reasonable suspicion in some jurisdictions, in others they may need to have probable cause, and usually a search is lawful if the officer has a reasonable fear for his own safety. If they make an arrest, they must have probable cause to believe that a crime was committed and that you committed it. A word of warning: this sounds like a high standard, in practice it gives a law enforcement officer a lot of leeway.

O.K., here's the opinion part:

A policeman asking you questions in a public place is doing his job, no matter what activity you are or are not engaged in. A policeman who questions aggressively or harshly on initial contact may be using poor people skills, or even act unprofessionally. While of course you should not surrender constitutional rights, it is usually more productive, and safer, to use what I call "dignity ju jitsu".

It is amazing to me how many people neglect to use their right to remain silent, especially criminal clients who have previously been convicted by their own voluntary statements, and should know better than to be chatty with law enforcement.

When the police feel obliged to question someone in a public setting, the quickest way to get the interview over is to make sure you are not sarcastic, and that you keep your tone perfectly neutral, keep eye contact, and avoid appearing evasive in your responses.

You do not owe the officer anything more than an answer to his question--you don't need to make a new friend, or make a political point. If you show him the ID he asks for and give him the basic information he requests, the exchange will be over very quickly. He will run out of things to ask very quickly, but if you give him answers he can interpret as a challenge, or that contain sarcasm or ambiguous language, that becomes another reason to have to work out whether you are a threat to him or to the public.

You should not have to live in fear of contact with the police, but at the same time it is important to note that attitude is a low percentage maneuver. It seems to me that, in general, there has been a decline in courtesy and civility, and that people seem to feel that they are free to give each other attitude, and act rudely with no expectation that there will be a consequence. On Long Island in New York, rudeness and attitude seem to have become a high art form.

I was actually the first judge in my court to sentence a defendant to jail for zoning violations--the violations were serious, threatening the lives of children who lived in the building--but despite the seriousness of the charges, the defendant was quite rude and obnoxious to me, the judge in his case. While of course I based my verdict on the evidence alone, his attitude and rudeness in court were directly relevant to sentencing. Likewise, great care should be exercised in response to any inquiry by law enforcement officers--no matter that you are innocent. You may sorely regret the consequences of indulging in attitude and grand expositions about your views as to the constitutionality of the officer's actions.

Hospitaller, none of this was directed to you, I am simply responding to some of the posts in this thread. For all I know, your response in the situation you relate was perfectly appropriate.

To bring this back around to kilted experiences, I will say that even when I am not in my own jurisdiction, where I am well known by law enforcement, the usual response from law enforcement is not only positive, but enthusiastic. Of course, the representation of Celts in law enforcement is strong, and at least on the East coast [New York], law enforcement is quite familiar with the kilt.

[Edmund L Green]

i have nothing but respect for law enforcement/emt/firefighters, and while i know that guy was doing his job, he could have been a little more polite, but hey, its a small town and that was probably the most hes seen in a long time. while i was in landstuhl one day we stopped at rammstein to go to the "bx" not "px" as the guard at the gate corrected me. we were passing the airfield and saw someone taking pictures of the runways and airfield. when i told an mp about it they said oh okay, go here then make a left and then 2 rights and let the desk sgt know about it... uhm. cant you like... call it in? no, i must mantain my crossing guard post..***? an issue of security like that and you cant put down your stop paddle for 2 seconds?