Recent Irish kilt question

[Phil]

I have no doubt that what you say is true... and I have never tried to claim the kilt as being Irish, but these days, there is a market, generated by the mills in Scotland, directed at an Irish consumer

Exactly true. And why not? I would love to see the kilt worn in all countries with their own take on a particular tartan. It is such a comfortable garment to wear. Nobody is saying it is an exclusively "Scottish" garment just that it originated here and we love to see people wearing it.

[Tony Miles]

...... but if you spy and Irishman in a County Cork kilt, someone in Scotland made money...and everyone feels good about it.

Someone in Pakistan probably made some coin too

[O'Callaghan]

I have no doubt that what you say is true... and I have never tried to claim the kilt as being Irish, but these days, there is a market, generated by the mills in Scotland, directed at an Irish consumer.. We have a couple different mills who each have their hands in the creation of County tartans, we have a form of Argylls manufactured, again in Scotland for an Irish market, and please correct me if I am wrong, I believe MOR made a
comment that he had a hand in the creation of the Kilkenny and Brian Boru jackets.

We all agree the Scots originated the kilt, and it is their National Dress, but it's safe to say, Scottish markets are benifitting from the pan Celtic revivalism that is putting not only Irish, but Welsh, Cornish, Britens, as well as Canadian, American, et al. into kilts..

History will not or even should not be rewritten by no means, but if you spy and Irishman in a County Cork kilt, someone in Scotland made money...and everyone feels good about it.

And incidentally, my Irish blood is enough to give me Irish Citizenship, but to get it, I would have to give up my British citizenship. I hold a dual citizenship, already.

You don't have to give up British citizenship to get Irish citizenship unless both claims to citizenship are from Northern Ireland. Only one citizenship or the other can be claimed from NI, but British and Irish citizenship are not otherwise mutually exclusive.

If you are already a US citizen, this makes no difference. The renunciation of all other citizenships when you become a naturalised US citizen doesn't even have any effect upon either British or Irish citizenship.

OTOH, you cannot be a citizen of two commonwealth countries, e.g. the UK and Canada would be a barred combination, although I'm not sure whether Canada still recognises that rule. At least two former British colonies are not members of the commonwealth though, the US, which never was, and Ireland, which resigned from the commonwealth to preserve its military neutrality just before the outbreak of WW2.

One type of claim to Irish citizenship, 'by association' can be continued an infinite number of generations, or until the chain is broken. My grandfather failed to claim Irish citizenship, and is now beyond persuasion, so that scotches my own claim. Otherwise I would have been able to have both British and Irish passports, neither claim having anything atall to do with Northern Ireland.

[macwilkin]

At least two former British colonies are not members of the commonwealth though, the US, which never was, and Ireland, which resigned from the commonwealth to preserve its military neutrality just before the outbreak of WW2.

I thought Ireland left the Commonwealth in 1948 with the Passage of the Republic of Ireland Act by the Oireachtas.

T.

[Stratherrick]

And then, not referring to any previous post, there's the deal where you can be taken on by any clan so long as you feel you want to be recognised with it, so long as no chief objects, which is hardly likely. That being done, you're as entitled to wear that clan's kilt as the next person!

Slainte (just won a bottle of Grouse in a work raffle!)

Bruce

[O'Callaghan]

I thought Ireland left the Commonwealth in 1948 with the Passage of the Republic of Ireland Act by the Oireachtas.

T.

Before the war, the Irish representative to the Commonwealth Conference tendered Ireland's resignation, some time around 1935 or so. There is a story that this only happened due to a misunderstanding, and that he wasn't supposed to have done that, but he did.

Changing the name from the Free State to the Republic didn't coincide with resignation from the Commonwealth. It was later changed simply to 'Ireland', but I prefer to call it the Republic. For that matter, the Irish Gaelige name has never been changed since independence, and remains to this day Saorstat Eireann, which means ... the Irish Free State (same as the original name in English)!

[macwilkin]

Before the war, the Irish representative to the Commonwealth Conference tendered Ireland's resignation, some time around 1935 or so. There is a story that this only happened due to a misunderstanding, and that he wasn't supposed to have done that, but he did.

Changing the name from the Free State to the Republic didn't coincide with resignation from the Commonwealth. It was later changed simply to 'Ireland', but I prefer to call it the Republic. For that matter, the Irish Gaelige name has never been changed since independence, and remains to this day Saorstat Eireann, which means ... the Irish Free State (same as the original name in English)!

Now that you say that, I do remember reading that story in a history of Ireland during the "Emergency".

But the act of parliament of 1948 was entitled "The Republic of Ireland Act".

T.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

You don't have to give up British citizenship to get Irish citizenship unless both claims to citizenship are from Northern Ireland. Only one citizenship or the other can be claimed from NI, but British and Irish citizenship are not otherwise mutually exclusive.

Anyone born anywhere on the island of Ireland is, under Irish law, entitled to Irish citizenship and, thus, an Irish passport. As far as I am aware the Passport Office down on Molesworth Street does not ask any citizen if he/she holds a UK passport as a condition of issuing an Irish Passport. To my sure and certain knowledge there are a great many individuals in NI who hold both UK and Irish Passports, and indeed a fair number in the Republic as well.

It may be that in the less than three years I have resided in the United States Irish (or EU) laws may have changed, but as far as I am aware there is no general prohibition on people in NI holding both passports.

[ccga3359]

The original point of this post was because the original poster of another thread was insulted (by another individual poster) for asking a question regarding Irish kilts. I intend this to be a show of force that this would not be tolerated by the general membership and asked that this thread to be immediatly shut down should it turn political (not that the Mhis ods need my permission).

Well somewhere along the way an intelligent and respectful discussion broke out. Not too surprising with the calibre of our membership. I hope that the OP from the other thread is following this thread and is appreciating the wealth of information coming out and that we didn't lose him. by all means continue gentlemen as I really don't have anything to contribute to this topic I am learning from it.

Just an aside to O'Callaghan I do have dual citizenship I carry a British passport and (dont currently but) can carry a Canadian passport as both my parents do. They used to use their British passports traveling back to England and their Canadian re-entering Canada (to speed through respective customs). I don't know if my children will be eligble for UK citizenship being first generation Canadian born.

[O'Callaghan]

Anyone born anywhere on the island of Ireland is, under Irish law, entitled to Irish citizenship and, thus, an Irish passport. As far as I am aware the Passport Office down on Molesworth Street does not ask any citizen if he/she holds a UK passport as a condition of issuing an Irish Passport. To my sure and certain knowledge there are a great many individuals in NI who hold both UK and Irish Passports, and indeed a fair number in the Republic as well.

It may be that in the less than three years I have resided in the United States Irish (or EU) laws may have changed, but as far as I am aware there is no general prohibition on people in NI holding both passports.

The law in Northern Ireland is quite clear in that it says you may only claim either British or Irish citizenship but not both if you are from there. However, as always with dual citizenship, the laws of the two countries seldom agree, and this produces odd results. I have no doubt that the Republic of Ireland don't give a fig what other citizenship you hold, so they would of course issue an Irish passport to someone from NI regardless, although I do understand that they require you to specify which of the six NI counties you were born in, despite the fact that all of these counties were abolished some time ago, LOL!

The mills still make tartans for the six counties, for that matter, and I suppose people figure out somehow which one they should wear, even if they can't find it on a map. That's the only part of this post that relates to kilts, folks.

So, I suppose in practice you are right and such a person could hold both passports, because although it is against British law it is not prohibited by Irish law, and as you say, the EU doesn't care if you are a citizen of more than one member state. As I noted, though, even British law has nothing against it unless both claims to citizenship are based on NI, as opposed to the Republic or other parts of the UK.

There is a similar situation regarding the US, in that US law states in one place that dual nationals must choose between US and foreign citizenship when they turn 18, although in other places the law does recognise that dual citizens who are not minors actually exist. This is because the US cannot prevent anyone from obtaining foreign citizenship, only the other country can govern that, and according to the legal precedents, US citizenship is only forcibly revoked if you are only a naturalized US citizen and you voluntarily join either the armed forces or the civil service of your other country of citizenship after obtaining US citizenship.

I don't know your citizenship, but I do know that you live in the US and have been an Irish civil servant. If, for sake of argument, you were Irish and became naturalised as an American, and then joined the Irish civil service, that would be grounds to revoke your US citizenship, but it would not be automatic, the US government would have to file suit against you, and they would have to have some reason to do so. Of course, I imagine you were in the Irish civil service before going to the US, so none of that would apply.

To take another example, if someone were Irish, emigrated to the US and became a US citizen, then moved back to Ireland, they could remain a dual national as long as they didn't voluntarily join the armed forces or the civil service. This is actually not that uncommon. Sometimes they even have kids who are born in Ireland but qualify for US citizenship if the parent has enough years of US residence, and the kids then emigrate to America on a US passport.

I say 'voluntarily' because some countries (not Ireland) still draft people, and that doesn't affect their US citizenship.