Functional Sgian

[Chas]

We have discussed this many times before and will doubtless do so again in the future. And quite rightly so. This kind of information is vital to new members and is more important than all the possible hose colour combinations.

To that end, I am posting an extract from the current British Law. Not my interpretation, or how I feel it should be. No trans-Atlantic spin, no ifs, no buts, just the Law.

Criminal Justice Act 1988

1988 CHAPTER 33

Part XI

Articles with blades or points and offensive weapons

Section 139

139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place

(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume.
(6) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.
(7) In this section “public place” includes any place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise.
(8) This section shall not have effect in relation to anything done before it comes into force.

I have added 3 highlights, to denote blade size, good reason and national costume. It should be noted that the Act does not specify, whose national costume, just that it should be a national costume.

For those interested, the Act is located here:

http://195.99.1.70/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880033_en_1

Regards

Chas

[CDNSushi]

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume.

Wicked. It just so happens that I am an ordained minister with the Universal Life Church, and all adult adherents to our particular, local sect are required to carry a Bat'leth with them at all times as a promise to God.



Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention. Our sacred texts specify that the metal must be AIRDI 150 high carbon steel and all edges must be honed to a razor edge or it will be an affront to our deity, for which we will be punished.

[Chas]

Hi CDNSushi,

Does your 'weapon' exceed 3"? If not then you will be OK in the UK and not a danger to anyone.

Regards

Chas

[Micric]

Skauwt,

Thank you for your answer, I see now where you are coming from. Thanks again.

Open question, if I may;

Re the law in the UK;
I might be a bit thick, but I see that it Appears to say it's ok to carry the knife as part of a national costume;
The law doesnt seem to say "Decorative copy"

Also, it appears to be legal to carry a pocket-knife with a blade under 3 inches.
Does this mean that a knife which is part of a national dress is Also bound by the same criteria?( three inch blade??)
I ask this only because to my undestanding, the legal pocket-knife length, and "Part of a National dress", provision, would be classed as Totally Different points of law.

If these two Are different points of law, can we take the the requirements of the one
(three inch blade) and apply them to the other, (National dress)?

To my understanding, the three-inch criteria would not apply to national dress.

I don't want to muddy the waters, but unless i'm mistaken it Appears we have a perfectly legal right to carry the sgian dubh, even if it is functional.

Note;
I don't live in the UK anymore, so it wouldn't be me getting the chop if I'm wrong in my interepretation!!!

Best wishes,
Richard.

[Good Egg]

I have a functional Sgian Dhub it has a bottle opener instead of a blade. I use it when dressed casually or if going somewhere where they would not let a blade in. Sports ground, night club or whatever. Or if I know I'm going to be cracking bottles.

[QUOTE=Chas;874695]Hi CDNSushi,

Does your 'weapon' exceed 3"? If not then you will be OK in the UK and not a danger to anyone.

Regards

From http://www.goxplore.net/guides/Knife_law_%28UK%29

"The special exception which exists in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (s139) for folding knives (pocket knives) is another "common sense" measure accepting that some small knives are carried for general utility however even a folding pocket knife of less than 3" (76mm) may still be considered an offensive weapon if carried or used for that purpose. It was a long held common belief that a folding knife must be non-locking for this provision to apply.

A Crown Court case (Harris v DPP), ruled (case law). A lock knife for all legal purposes, is the same as a fixed blade knife. A folding pocket knife must be readily foldable at all times. If it has a mechanism that prevents folding, it's a lock knife (or for legal purposes, a fixed blade) The Court of Appeal (REGINA - v - DESMOND GARCIA DEEGAN 1998) upheld the Harris ruling stating that "folding was held to mean non-locking". No leave to appeal was granted."

[Lallans]

I can't bear the thought of owning anything that wasn't functional in at least 2 different ways. With that in mind I found a nice little knife from Gerber Knives that for me made a perfect sgian. I made a little leather sheath for it as it came with a tactical plastic locking one, but that ws the only modification I had to do.

here it is in the sheath
[IMG][/IMG]
and with the blade exposed
[IMG][/IMG]

I have that model, among other uses once carried it in my fishing vest. It has a very sharpenable and useful blade, and I too have used it as a sgian. Trouble is, the handle is so non-ornamental.

[xman]

Does your 'weapon' exceed 3"? Chas

I believe those exceed 3 feet!

This is my opportunity to thank you all once again for this outstanding and very educational discussion.

Nearly nine out of ten X-Markers prefer a tool to a jewel.

[nagod]

as a quick reminder a double edged knife is specifically illegal in some locations and wiccans have no requirement to carry an athame in (unlike sikhs and their kirpan)

[sfb]

I'm not trying to be deliberately pedantic, and there's no practical difference, but bearing in mind the website we're on, it's probably as well to remember that Scotland has a wee bit of law of its own.



The Criminal Law Consolidation (Scotland) Act 1995

Section 49: Offence of having in public place article with blade or point

(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence and liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both; and

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or a fine or both.

(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed.

(3) This section does not apply to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade does not exceed three inches (7.62 centimetres).

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) above to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in the public place.

(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) above to prove that he had the article with him—

(a) for use at work;

(b) for religious reasons; or

(c) as part of any national costume.


So...it's the same. You won't be deemed to be committing an offence if you've got a folding pocket knife with a blade less than 3" long; and if you've got a sgian dubh which "has a blade or is sharply pointed" (regardless of its length) then you have a defence if you can prove you've got it as part of a national costume.

Bear in mind that stuff relates to simply "possessing" the knife, ie having it quietly down your sock. (Sorry, hose.) Liberate it from there and you've got a whole different set of potential problems!

[Jordan]

Wiccans or Pagans of any varity dont have a need to carry a knife around in public on a day to day basis anyway. And even so tend to keep it out of public view (Wraped up in a bag etc)

Jordan