Balanced treatment of Ulster history

[Lallans]

Gaelic Irish that converted to become protestants mainly joined the Church of Ireland, which is a branch of the Anglican church, aka Episcopalian. This was the established church. OTOH, protestant Ulster Scots were and are mostly Presbyterian, so it's not all that hard to disambiguate two groups that attended different churches. The main reason for conversion was to overcome bans on Catholics buying land and/or joining the learned professions, which were repealed in the first half of the 19th century.

Non-Anglicans and particularly Presbyterians were as persecuted as Catholics in the early days of the Plantation and at times more so, and more violently. The body count of the day shows that. Also, the non-catholic Reillys, Farrells, and O'Neils in my extended family might take issue with your statement regarding the reason their ancestors became protestant- you might find they had the same reasons that anyone did. And there are plenty in my family on this side of the Atlantic that went from anglican to catholic. Someday perhaps there will just be people in NI and they will see themselves that way. Slainte!

[macwilkin]

Non-Anglicans and particularly Presbyterians were as persecuted as Catholics in the early days of the Plantation and at times more so, and more violently. The body count of the day shows that. Also, the non-catholic Reillys, Farrells, and O'Neils in my family might take issue with your statement regarding the reason their ancestors became protestant- you might find they had the same reasons that anyone did. And there are plenty in my family on this side of the Atlantic that went from anglican to catholic. Someday perhaps there will just be people in NI and they will see themselves that way. Slainte!

Indeed; that is one of the reasons why for the great migration of the Ulster-Scots to North America beginning in the early 1700s, and why they were so zealous in their support for the Rebels in 1776. One MP remarked at the beginning of the war, "Cousin America has run off with a Presbyterian parson, and there is nothing we can do about it." Besides religious discrimination, the "Black Frost" and crop failures only added to their sufferings.

Of course, many of those Ulster-Scots Presbyterians would convert to the Methodist, Baptist and Campbellite denominations after arriving on the American frontier, as those three "new light" groups during the Great Awakening tended to be more frontier-oriented that the more "established" Presbyterian Church. Layburn discusses this in some detail, as well as Fischer's Albion's Seed.

Finally, it should be note that a small number of German and French Protestants also intermarried with the Ulster-Scots; the most famous American example being David Crockett, who was descended from a Hueguenot refugee family that Anglicized their name after arriving in Ireland.

T.

[RadioKen]

This thread has given me quite a reading list! I have Ulster-Scots in my tree through the Lackey branch, and possibly others. Thanks to all for the recommendations!

As an aside, I've had a passing interest in the history of the gallowglass mercenaries, and now I have a reading list pertaining to them, too!

~Ken

[Lallans]

I have to throw in a plug for the book "Born Fighting" by Jim (now Senator) Webb. He has an interesting (and focused) view of the role of the Scots Irish in US history and most SI descendants who read the book love it.

[macwilkin]

I have to throw in a plug for the book "Born Fighting" by Jim (now Senator) Webb. He has an interesting view of the role of the Scots Irish in US history and most SI descendants who read the book love it.

INMHO, Leyburn's book is a better one in terms of "facts". While Webb's book is very popular, it tends to be more of his own personal observations. Webb tried hard, and his book does attempt to set the story straight about the Ulster-Scots in America, so props to him for that. I am a supporter of "public history", but Leyburn is proof that academic history can be just as enjoyable as the public kind.

Perhaps Webb and Leyburn belong together on the bookshelf, each with their own strengths.

T.

[McElmurry]

I appreciate all of your recommendations particularly with the annotations indicating a little about the perspective of the author. I suspect in time I will begin to discern this for myself. I don’t mind alternating between the scholarly and the mainstream. While waiting for some of your recommended books to arrive I am reading “Wars of the Irish Kings” by David Willis McCullough. I am currently on the chapter that presents “The Cattle Raid of Cooley” as translated by byThomas Kinsella.

[macwilkin]

I appreciate all of your recommendations particularly with the annotations indicating a little about the perspective of the author. I suspect in time I will begin to discern this for myself. I don’t mind alternating between the scholarly and the mainstream. While waiting for some of your recommended books to arrive I am reading “Wars of the Irish Kings” by David Willis McCullough. I am currently on the chapter that presents “The Cattle Raid of Cooley” as translated by byThomas Kinsella.

In a similar vein, you might want to check out In Search of Ancient Ireland: The Origins of the Irish from Neolithic Times to the Coming of the English by Carmel McCaffery. It was also a PBS Documentary that is available on DVD.

T.

[davidlpope]

Indeed; that is one of the reasons why for the great migration of the Ulster-Scots to North America beginning in the early 1700s, and why they were so zealous in their support for the Rebels in 1776. One MP remarked at the beginning of the war, "Cousin America has run off with a Presbyterian parson, and there is nothing we can do about it." Besides religious discrimination, the "Black Frost" and crop failures only added to their sufferings.

Of course, many of those Ulster-Scots Presbyterians would convert to the Methodist, Baptist and Campbellite denominations after arriving on the American frontier, as those three "new light" groups during the Great Awakening tended to be more frontier-oriented that the more "established" Presbyterian Church. Leyburn discusses this in some detail, as well as Fischer's Albion's Seed.

Finally, it should be note that a small number of German and French Protestants also intermarried with the Ulster-Scots; the most famous American example being David Crockett, who was descended from a Hueguenot refugee family that Anglicized their name after arriving in Ireland.

T.

Todd, Excellent points throughout.

A good source for one Anglican clergyman's view towards the Scots-Irish Presbyterians in the colonies is Charles Woodmason's "Carolina Backcountry on the Eve of the Revolution". As Todd points out, though, most of the descendents of these Scots-Irish settlers would end up as Southern Baptists or Methodists after the Second Great Awakening, instead of in the pews of the local First Presbyterian Church.

David

[macwilkin]

Todd, Excellent points throughout.

A good source for one Anglican clergyman's view towards the Scots-Irish Presbyterians in the colonies is Charles Woodmason's "Carolina Backcountry on the Eve of the Revolution". As Todd points out, though, most of the descendents of these Scots-Irish settlers would end up as Southern Baptists or Methodists after the Second Great Awakening, instead of in the pews of the local First Presbyterian Church.

David

I did neglect to include the Cumberland Presbyterians in my litany of churches, David, since they were technically "New Lichts" as well. Of course, coming from a long line of "Auld Lichts", perhaps I did that on purpose.

T.

[McElmurry]

My Dad’s recollection of my Grandfather’s reckoning was the Methodists made inroads on the frontier by using lay pastors supported by circuit ministers who performed functions requiring ordination. According to his story the Presbyterians required all pastors to be educated at seminary. The Methodists simply had a better business model to keep up with the rapid westward expansion. Again, this was an explanation by my 80 year old grandfather (born 1881) as told to his son in law 50 years ago and then recently conveyed to me. The story would pertain to north central Arkansas, Searcy County.