Civilian Mess Jackets

[MacLowlife]

I think Red Sea Rig mostly works for those who don't need it- and, of course, if you are on the Red Sea.

I understand the origins of Red Sea Rig and I think it makes sense in certain environs, much as I understand when a host removes his jacket at a hot party, but I am afraid Red Sea Rig in the kilt mostly comes down to a black tie. And that is a lot of distinction to hang on a narrow strip of fabric.

I like to wear a linen jacket with my kilt in hot weather, to cut down a little on the suffering. I am talking about SC weather, where it has already gone to the 90s this year and will stay that way, with accompanying humidity until sometime in September. Part of life here is taking more showers and sweating through a lot of shirt linen. Sometimes you have to suffer a little for style.

The problem is, waiters in black tie with no jackets look like waiters. Adding a dirk belt doesn't make them look like officers. In most situations where guests and staff are all in black tie, you can tell the difference, even if a guest has removed his jacket. But so much of this forum is devoted to helping people who don't yet have that certain "look" that helps distinguish the two groups. If your full dress clothes came from a business that has "wearhouse" in its name, or your shirt is easy care, just be prepared to help clear the tables.

[macwilkin]

I think Red Sea Rig mostly works for those who don't need it- and, of course, if you are on the Red Sea.

I understand the origins of Red Sea Rig and I think it makes sense in certain environs, much as I understand when a host removes his jacket at a hot party, but I am afraid Red Sea Rig in the kilt mostly comes down to a black tie. And that is a lot of distinction to hang on a narrow strip of fabric.

I like to wear a linen jacket with my kilt in hot weather, to cut down a little on the suffering. I am talking about SC weather, where it has already gone to the 90s this year and will stay that way, with accompanying humidity until sometime in September. Part of life here is taking more showers and sweating through a lot of shirt linen. Sometimes you have to suffer a little for style.

The problem is, waiters in black tie with no jackets look like waiters. Adding a dirk belt doesn't make them look like officers. In most situations where guests and staff are all in black tie, you can tell the difference, even if a guest has removed his jacket. But so much of this forum is devoted to helping people who don't yet have that certain "look" that helps distinguish the two groups. If your full dress clothes came from a business that has "wearhouse" in its name, or your shirt is easy care, just be prepared to help clear the tables.

I don't think I'm that brave to tell a Royal Marine officer he looks like a waiter in "Red Sea Rig", but it's your funeral.

And methinks you misunderstood my reference to RSR -- I simply stated that it was a variant of formal attire in the tropics/"East of Suez". I have, however, seen a Highland variant of RSR in an article on the Clan Campbell Society's web site:

The military version consists of a long sleeved white dress shirt, black bow tie, tartan trews and a silk cummerbund in the regimental tartan (unless this is the very dark Campbell tartan, in which case a red, green or blue cummerbund may be substituted). The civilian version is usually a long sleeved white dress shirt, black or red bow tie and kilt.

-- http://www.ccsna.org/jsep46.htm

When I get my pair of trews in the Campbell of Cawdor/Argyll District tartan one of these days, I might just have to try this look at a formal do in the Summer. Horses for courses...

T.

[Galician]

This thread has taken an unexpected but extremely useful turn for me.

I'm being feted on Friday for a special life milestone and being taken to the theater. Of course, I want to go kilted! The problem is that summer is breaking out and the heat index here is supposed to be about 100F with slightly cooler but rainy weather on Friday.

This Red Sea Rig sounds like the anwer to my dilemma of what to wear. But I'm unclear what exactly is worn in this style. Is it basically just a long-sleeved shirt, bowtie and cumberbund in place of a belt?

[Cygnus]

I think Red Sea Rig mostly works for those who don't need it- and, of course, if you are on the Red Sea.

I understand the origins of Red Sea Rig and I think it makes sense in certain environs, much as I understand when a host removes his jacket at a hot party, but I am afraid Red Sea Rig in the kilt mostly comes down to a black tie. And that is a lot of distinction to hang on a narrow strip of fabric.

I agree. I don't have any problem with Red Sea rig, but, because it seems so much less formal, you wouldn't catch me wearing it so long as other guests were wearing their jackets.

I like to wear a linen jacket with my kilt in hot weather, to cut down a little on the suffering. I am talking about SC weather, where it has already gone to the 90s this year and will stay that way, with accompanying humidity until sometime in September. Part of life here is taking more showers and sweating through a lot of shirt linen. Sometimes you have to suffer a little for style.

But would you wear that for a black-tie kind of event? I'd love a linen kilt jacket, but I just don't feel it would really work for formal wear.

If your full dress clothes came from a business that has "wearhouse" in its name, or your shirt is easy care, just be prepared to help clear the tables.

I don't think I'm that brave to tell a Royal Marine officer he looks like a waiter in "Red Sea Rig", but it's your funeral.

And methinks you misunderstood my reference to RSR -- I simply stated that it was a variant of formal attire in the tropics/"East of Suez". I have, however, seen a Highland variant of RSR in an article on the Clan Campbell Society's web site:

I think MacLowlife's point was that it is a difficult look to pull off without looking "waiterly". It sounds to me like quality is the key.

When I get my pair of trews in the Campbell of Cawdor/Argyll District tartan one of these days, I might just have to try this look at a formal do in the Summer. Horses for courses...

Can we expect pictures?

[Cygnus]

This thread has taken an unexpected but extremely useful turn for me.

I'm being feted on Friday for a special life milestone and being taken to the theater. Of course, I want to go kilted! The problem is that summer is breaking out and the heat index here is supposed to be about 100F with slightly cooler but rainy weather on Friday.

This Red Sea Rig sounds like the anwer to my dilemma of what to wear. But I'm unclear what exactly is worn in this style. Is it basically just a long-sleeved shirt, bowtie and cumberbund in place of a belt?

That's it precisely. Though with a kilt, I'd skip the cummerbund. Some people do wear them, but a dirk belt and buckle (in my opinion) just look so much better.

And if you're feeling adventurous, a red bow tie is a bold but still acceptable accessory with Red Sea rig.

And congratulations on the "special life milestone"!

[macwilkin]

I agree. I don't have any problem with Red Sea rig, but, because it seems so much less formal, you wouldn't catch me wearing it so long as other guests were wearing their jackets.

True...Red Sea Rig would need to be the order of the day in terms of dress at a formal event, and purists will say that it, like a white formal jacket, should only be worn "East of Suez", or in tropic climes. However, it might be fun to try it, say on a cruise.

And yes, if I ever do get around to ordering said trews, I will do up a RSR photo, complete with red cummerbund and bow tie.

T.

[Galician]

Thanks, Cygnus, x 2.

I was wondering how a cummerbund might go with a kilt. I like the thought of a red bowtie.

I have no idea how a dirk belt looks. Since I won't wear even a sgian dubh, however, I don't see myself ever having use of a dirk.

[macwilkin]

Thanks, Cygnus, x 2.

I was wondering how a cummerbund might go with a kilt. I like the thought of a red bowtie.

I have no idea how a dirk belt looks. Since I won't wear even a sgian dubh, however, I don't see myself ever having use of a dirk.

The USAF Pipes and Drums used to wear a cummerbund with their kit. It doesn't look bad per se, but in their case, it was part of a uniform.

T.

[longhuntr74]

As many have posted in other threads lately that they find themselves logging in or participating in XMTS threads less recently due to a variety of reasons...I sometimes feel the same way. But then threads like this come along and I learn something that I didn't know...and it's refreshing.

I consider myself fairly well versed in the levels of attire and etiquette, Saxon, military, and now Highland as well...but never have I heard of Red Sea Rig. Thank you all for exposing me to another little bit of knowledge. I'm not opposed to the look, but have to say that I'm with MacLL on the opinion side. I think it's a perfectly acceptable manner of dress when it's named as the dress code for an event. However, if you are attending a civilian black tie affair where everybody else is wearing traditional black tie (ie. with jacket)...you'll look under-dressed (best case) or like a waiter (worst case).

Getting back to the subject of the thread...mess jackets...I love the look. I'll admit to being very tempted to wear my uniform mess jacket with a kilt, but have thus far resisted out of respect for uniform regulations and not mixing US military and Highland attire in civilian wear. Regarding the white mess jacket...I think it carries with it a similar stigma to the white shirt/cummerbund/bow tie combination (I haven't used RSR here on purpose...we can call it RSR in it's designated place, but when it's not the designated uniform it's just poor form or a service uniform) in that it may conjure up images of waiters or cruise ship attendants (Love Boat, anyone?) I have been tempted to buy the white mess uniform...it's relatively inexpensive...but the problem is that nobody in the U.S. Army wears it...so if I wore it to a summertime function (which are also rare...most balls tend to be during the Christmas holiday season or in the spring), I'd be the only white jacket in a sea of blue and black.

[macwilkin]

As many have posted in other threads lately that they find themselves logging in or participating in XMTS threads less recently due to a variety of reasons...I sometimes feel the same way. But then threads like this come along and I learn something that I didn't know...and it's refreshing.

I consider myself fairly well versed in the levels of attire and etiquette, Saxon, military, and now Highland as well...but never have I heard of Red Sea Rig. Thank you all for exposing me to another little bit of knowledge. I'm not opposed to the look, but have to say that I'm with MacLL on the opinion side. I think it's a perfectly acceptable manner of dress when it's named as the dress code for an event. However, if you are attending a civilian black tie affair where everybody else is wearing traditional black tie (ie. with jacket)...you'll look under-dressed (best case) or like a waiter (worst case).

Getting back to the subject of the thread...mess jackets...I love the look. I'll admit to being very tempted to wear my uniform mess jacket with a kilt, but have thus far resisted out of respect for uniform regulations and not mixing US military and Highland attire in civilian wear. Regarding the white mess jacket...I think it carries with it a similar stigma to the white shirt/cummerbund/bow tie combination (I haven't used RSR here on purpose...we can call it RSR in it's designated place, but when it's not the designated uniform it's just poor form or a service uniform) in that it may conjure up images of waiters or cruise ship attendants (Love Boat, anyone?) I have been tempted to buy the white mess uniform...it's relatively inexpensive...but the problem is that nobody in the U.S. Army wears it...so if I wore it to a summertime function (which are also rare...most balls tend to be during the Christmas holiday season or in the spring), I'd be the only white jacket in a sea of blue and black.

http://usafflagranks.com/unknown_brigadier_general.html

I happened to be watching They Were Expendable this weekend, and noted a US Army officer in a white tropical uniform at the dance in the beginning of the film. I'm fairly certain I've seen a photo of "Dugout Doug" wearing one in the Islands (Philippines) as well.

Just some interesting "flotsam and jetsam" regarding US military uniforms of "days of yore".

T.