DNA Genealogy

[Dram]

I've considered Famiy Tree DNAs super DNA test and doing both lines at the same time to see what I get. I'm trying to figure out if my paternal line will show Gealic or Norse (Norman) blood. What do you guys think abou that test? I want to wittle it all the way down. I've traced my name back to the 16th century, but there's such a blend of people in Scotland and Ireland, from one to another and back again that it just mixes into a blur. I know my ancestry to be Scots, but Scots what?

What about the super DNA test? Is it worth it?

If you have the means I don't see why you wouldn't be happy with the full or "super" test, however, a Y-DNA test (your fathers line) would tell you if your Scots ancestry has a Norse signature. I wouldn't reccommend anything less than a 37 marker test to accomplish this. 37 markers should give you some pretty clear "relatives" (matches) of presumably similar surname origin.

Mtdna which tests the mitochondrial DNA, can only give you a ball park area of your maternal (mothers-mothers line) origin. MTDNA does not contain nearly as much ancestral info as YDNA does (at least the science isn't there yet).

The newer test called "Family Finder" (autosomal markers) is supposedly able to connect/detect cousins on both sides (maternal/paternal) as far back as 5 generations, it also can give you an idea of your ancetral genetic make-up percentages i.e. 75% Western Europen -15% European - 10% Asian. That's about as detailed as it gets at this time. I think it is a good tool for genealogists becuase it can connect you to other branches of your family.

Hope this helps!

[Dram]

I'm trying to figure out if my paternal line will show Gealic or Norse (Norman) blood. I know my ancestry to be Scots, but Scots what?

Norman blood is not easily determined. Many of the identifiable Norse DNA signatures are from direct lines from Norway. I think the highest probability of having a Norwegian signature would be if your surname was Macdonald, MacLeod, Morrison, Gunn. etc... and of course surnames from Shetland or Orkney. If your surname is from the West of Scotland (Highlands and Islands) most likely your Y-DNA will be either Norse or Gaelic.

I've heard of people who match Somereled refered to as "Sons of Somereled" and possessing that DNA signature however, if I recall correctly Somerled was of Norse and Scottish descent. I assume he had a Norse paternal ancester.

[RAF]

I find the whole DNA aspect of genealogy fascinating. I apologize if I've missed the answer to this question somewhere along the way. I have a hard time wrapping my head around one thing. Given that DNA is a relatively contemporary science, where does the data come from that says for example, you come from an ancient people in a specific area. Is DNA collected from the remains of these ancient peoples found in archeological digs? How is the baseline determined? Wouldn't your ancestors have to have their DNA on record somehow? How could that possibly be obtained? I'm sorry if I'm trying to oversimplify, but it's the only way I can start to understand this. I enjoy doing family research, but I feel like DNA for genealogical purposes is a one way road into darkness - all the data is at the end. Where does it begin? Any enlightening of this muddled brain would be appreciated.

[Gael Ridire]

I'm very much supportive of DNA research, but it is just one tool. A tool to be used when the paper trail ends. In 2002 I volunteered for a university theory to see if DNA can help in genealogy. I learned nothing about my own DNA from the project. Four years later I got a phone call from a friend of 10 yrs through email and the phone. He was one of the first to do the O'Brien Clan DNA surname project. His call was to inform me that my wondering if the family story of changing the surname from O'Bryan to Bryant was indeed true, for his DNA and mine at 43 markers match 100%. His surname is O'Brien, his grandfather was the immigrant in 1903, mine came to Canada about 1830, then to Colorado about 1861. He and I share a common ancestor about 1700 who is an O'Brien. Of the 150 O'Brien surnames in the project, he and I are the closest match to the current chief of the O'Brien Clan. Our family line broke from the main branch about 1250-1325. In the past couple of years there has been found a 12 marker DNA sequence called Irish Type III, that is unique to those of south-west Ireland of the Dal gCais Tribe, of which the O'Brien's are senior house.

DNA is being collected from all over the world to match against. A most informative book is titled "The Seven Daughters of Eve," by Alan Sykes (?) of Oxford. The best part is that he found no DNA link between Neanderthal and modern man. DNA can live for thousands of years given the right circumstances. Academics have placed great doubt on the ancient Irish Annals that tell of the invasion of Ireland. But the DNA signature of the Gael shows a close relationship with northern Spain and western France, just as the old legends say.

DNA help prove my surname, but another O'Brien I know had the test done and found out that he had the surname but not the blood or DNA.

The testing data is making great strides in the science. When it started just 12 markers were tested, then expand to 24, 37, 67, 87, and now 111.

[Dram]

Where does the data come from that says for example, you come from an ancient people in a specific area..

Through proven population samples. DNA has specific identifiable mutations that occur within a particular time frame. For example: our DNA is thousands of years old however, we can find common mutations in our DNA (I believe these mutations occur in populations where essentially the peoples become isolated to a particular geographical region) which become characteristics of a given population (Gaelic/Norse/Basque etc...) this process itself may take 1000 years or more. I'm sorry this is a vague answer...too much to consider writing here.

Is DNA collected from the remains of these ancient peoples found in archeological digs? How is the baseline determined?

DNA can be collected from remains. I am aware of some "bog-men" that scientists were able to recover DNA from. More commonly comparative DNA is gathered from proven samples of a living population. By proven, I mean someone who can trace their lineage back to a progenitor. For example: some Scottish clan chiefs have had their DNA tested because they can prove direct descendency from the originating line of the clan.

Wouldn't your ancestors have to have their DNA on record somehow? How could that possibly be obtained?

Your ancestors, ancestors are the historical record, and their descendents including you, me, and a ton of cousins depending on how far you wish to go back. It is the mutations on the markers of our DNA though that allow us to be "categorized" into cetain groups (families,clans, etc...) that narrows down our relationships considerably.

[O'Callaghan]

Surname projects typically test yDNA for people of the same surname, and deduce that those in the group who have related DNA are the ones whose DNA represents the name, whilst those who don't are due to Non-Parental Events (NPEs) or the like. So, that is usually how they decide.

I have good conventional genealogical information showing that I'm 1/8 Irish and tracing that line back to Co. Cork and then further back in time in the same place, possibly into the 1700s, although by that point it is hard to know if you have the right person.

However, that is my mother's father's line, so to cross-check that would involve testing the yDNA of one of my uncles, and I'm not atall sure that it would be a good use of money. The original Callaghan of Cashel was king of the Irish kingdom of Munster, about a thousand years ago, but I'm not sure whether DNA could demonstrate royal descent (or the absence thereof) over that period. He was of the Eoganacht (Eugenian) tribe, FWIW.

I also have quite a bit of info on my mother's mother's family, but only within England, although going back quite a way (I myself emigrated to the States). I do suspect (from my grandmother's maiden name) that my mtDNA if tested might go back to Holland, or possibly Belgium, but well before written records, so that is an interesting thought. There is also a similar German surname that is usually thought to be a variation. In fact, her maiden name could also be Scottish, but that part of England is only tens of miles from Holland or Belgium (albeit there is water inbetween) and hundreds of miles from the border with Scotland.

There is a great deal less known about my father's side. His mother's maiden name is one that can be English, Irish or Scottish by origin, but testing my yDNA couldn't answer that conundrum, and Occam's razor says it is most likely English.

As for my own surname (not my user name), it can be an anglicised form indicating Italian or Spanish origins, or can be English but have a religious meaning, which is odd as AFAIK no-one on that side has ever been near a church except to be christened, married or buried.

Testing my yDNA might reveal something of interest, as we don't know of anyone in that line outside of England, and even knowing if, say, it was Saxon or Briton would be of interest. My mother has sometimes kidded my father that he must be either Jewish or Roman, and who knows, maybe one or the other might even be true, at least genetically, although again how accurate you can be I don't know.

So you see, even those of us from the Old World are still mutts. It's just that we might be talking about tribes rather than nationalities.

[CopperNGold]

Can a very old lock of hair be used for this kind of DNA testing? I have no male surviving members of my father's family, but I do have a lock of my father's hair that my grandmother kept. I know extremely scientific DNA testing can use old samples, but with this 'for-the-public' testing, will I see some results or will the DNA have been disinigrated and unusuable?

I was able to do the maternal side ofthe family and discovered that I have Iberian/Celt on that side of the family, too. That was a surprise to me. I have a lot more work ahead of me.

[sirdaniel1975]

I recently had my y-dna (37 marker) tested at Family Tree DNA and had a wonderful experience. "I2a1b" is my y-dna haplogroup and I matched one of the Clan MacFarlane unassigned lineages. This finding was significant because my grandparents were convinced we were clan Gunn because someone Scottish Gift shop person told them so. I disproved it with genealogical research but hit a brick wall in the 1700's. They have my sample on record and I can always order more tests like mt-dna.

I strongly recomend this for the clan y-dna projects purposes and to help in the area were one gets curious about there older ancestral connections. As stated it is very helpful when a brick wall has been placed in your path and you're unsure about a possible clan connection. The DNA doesn't lie.

[Papa Slob]

I had mine done through National Geographic. It was more interested in which Hapla group I belong to, but it does show the path your tree followed.

Royce

[RAF]

Dram, thank you for those answers to my questions! I'm thinking I might have DNA testing done just to see if anything of interest comes up. While my Scot ancestry is through my paternal grandmother, I'm curious to see how much further I could go and/or what may be proved or disproved. Also would like to see if I can glean any information on my paternal grandfather's line, which is where I've hit a wall. All I know is that he's German.
Any suggestions for agencies and/or specific tests? From what I see here, the more markers, the more accurate (and I imagine the more expensive.)
Fascinating stuff - DNA! Wish me luck. Thanks again.