Whatever has happened to manners

[KiltedKnome]

For the Robert Heinlein fans, there is the quote from the notebooks of Lazarus Long:

Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as “empty,” “meaningless,” or “dishonest,” and scorn to use them. No matter how “pure” their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best."

My father always taught me that courtesy, politeness and respect in society is always something to be embraced -- and it is goes both ways. If you want to be treated with respect, you need to give respect.

[saxandpipes]

The trouble, I fear, is that not enough of us are providing good examples for those around us to follow.

This may also be true. I had the experience once of waiting, holding the door as one of my university lecturers approached. He passed through without the slightest acknowledgement. Oh well.

Cheers,

Michael

[Lyle1]

Lyle1.

I quite understand your sister-in-law's predicament, but I would like to think that a gentleman would offer his seat nonetheless and there is nothing to say that the offer HAS to be accepted-----and if the lady so wishes, the kind gesture is declined, graciously.

Exactly, but the point is that she would not have accepted if the seat were offered to her simply because of her gender. She would accept a seat because she was pregnant, though she normally took steps to assure that seats were available before she got on the bus.

Times have changed, and it is disingenuous to criticize the manners of other people using standards or customs that are based on social norms or generalizations that are no longer considered appropriate by most of society.

[artificer]

Times have changed, and it is disingenuous to criticize the manners of other people using standards or customs that are based on social norms or generalizations that are no longer considered appropriate by most of society.

By this logic, a rise of violence and crime should be tolerated if enough of society thought it was "just the way things are"?

Sorry, rudeness and inconsiderate behaviour MAY be commonplace, but that doesn't mean it isn't rude/crass/downright moronic.

Perhaps giving up your seat to a lady is a bit 'old-fashioned', but letting a door slam in someone's face is boorish, male or female. Common courtesy shouldn't die just because "men and women are equal".

ith:

[Downunder Kilt]

Times may have changed but the golden rule should still apply, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Not talking any religious connotations here, far from it, just common decency & manners

[Alan H]

Everything was so much better, back then.....

[Alan H]

Did you all know that there's a really interesting FaceBook group, now? It's called "Strong is the new Skinny" and it's for women. You know...strong women who are in shape and work out and are entirely capable of opening their own doors, or standing up in a bus.

Did you know that Annie Thorisdottir is a member of this group?



Did you know that the current United States Secretary of State is a woman? Seriously, no kidding!

Did you know that both the Senators from the State of California are women? Honest! Would I lie to you?

Did you know that I was fired from my previous job by my bosses boss, who was a woman? No kiddin'..Yup.

It's amazing that women can do such things, frail little delicate creatures that they are.

***remove tongue from cheek***

Personally, I figure the greater mark of respect is to treat a woman like the intelligent, competent, strong, capable person that she is, and save giving up seats on the bus to people who really need them, irregardless of gender. Respect -> manners, but the specifics of the chemical makeup of the necessary social grease change with the person and with the society. It's still necessary, just take care in applying your own formula, and assuming your *yours* is the only formula that works or is appropriate, especially as you/we/I get older.

[Lyle1]

By this logic, a rise of violence and crime should be tolerated if enough of society thought it was "just the way things are"?

Sorry, rudeness and inconsiderate behaviour MAY be commonplace, but that doesn't mean it isn't rude/crass/downright moronic.

Perhaps giving up your seat to a lady is a bit 'old-fashioned', but letting a door slam in someone's face is boorish, male or female. Common courtesy shouldn't die just because "men and women are equal".

ith:

That is not what I meant, at all, and you are certainly correct in saying that common courtesy shouldn't die because men and women are equal. In fact equality is as good a reason as any for all of us to courteous to one another.

[Alan H]

Letting a door slam in someones face is likely to result in their getting hurt. So that's bad. Don't do it.

But I quote...

"Sorry, rudeness and inconsiderate behaviour MAY be commonplace, but that doesn't mean it isn't rude/crass/downright moronic. "

That's where you are so dead wrong that you can't even see that you are wrong. The concept of being wrong doesn't even occur to you, because you are so entirely ingrained in the behaviors you have learned...and therefore everything else is rude, crass and so on. I am exactly the same way. There are things I observe being done....mostly by people who are younger than myself, that I would NEVER do..Not EVER. I would NEVER talk to the Luminous Joan in anything like the manner I witness a number of my younger friends speak to their girlfriends.

But just because it's wrong for me, does not make it wrong for them. That's how social conventions change.

If behavior is commonplace, then it's not rude and crass. You or I or some other old fart may think it's rude and crass, but if the majority of people do not see it as so, then it is not.

For example....

I have two young 20 something friends. They are quite in love with one another, and they treat each other well. However, on facebook, they insult each other to what seems to me, ancient old doddering fart that I am, to be an outrageous manner. I notice that her mother agrees with me. I have several times commented that I, personally would NEVER speak or write to the woman I cared about in such a manner.

Truth? She gives as good as she gets. They're great together, they laugh a lot, they care for each other a lot. I see them together in person several times a year, they're great. They so happen to tell the world that their partner is so ugly that blah-blah-blah. To me, Old Man that I am it's rude and shocking. To them, it's not. They laugh it off.

So who is "right" here? Is such behavior "rude and crass"? I know what you'd think.

I, however, in time came to accept it. I'm pretty sure I'll be invited to the wedding.

[Alan H]

Lyle1.

I quite understand your sister-in-law's predicament, but I would like to think that a gentleman would offer his seat nonetheless and there is nothing to say that the offer HAS to be accepted-----and if the lady so wishes, the kind gesture is declined, graciously.

And THAT, my friend Jock Scot, is precisely why you are a charming OLD MAN. You sport the values and manners of your generation, as do I. There's nothing wrong with that until you start demanding that everybody hew to your ways, and bellowing about how anybody who does not, is crass and disgusting.

Were the young woman I described above standing in the bus and were you to offer her your seat, she would probably look at you funny and say No thanks, I'm fine, and continue on with reading her online/downloaded book about powerlifting/how to succeed in business/programming in Perl or whatever it was that she was doing. She would think you a lovely old Scoittish gentleman with your outmoded ways and tweed jacket, and she is not in the tiniest bit offended by the young lad who is sitting immediately next to her in the seat, wearing his Anaheim Ducks knit cap and his thrash metal t-shirt, with his ears stuffed up with the earbuds from his ipod.

YOU would be horrified. She is not.

Relax.