Surprise with the US Air Force Reserve Pipe Band Tartan

[Barb T]

Well, I was merely responding to your post that said

I have learned some interesting things, eg the U.S. Air Force Reserve Pipe Band (aka Lady Jane), STA #2437 has a pretty-well documented history. For details see the url in cajunscot's post (#13). It is identically described on both the STA and SRT web pages, though the threadcount notation is different. A comment on this tartan from Strathmore was, "it has through universal usage, become widely accepted by servicemen and their families with US Air Force connections as a representative tartan design." The STA comment on the Lady Jane was simply, "The correct tartan is #2437 ...".

Seems to me from what you said that Strathmore is saying that the 2437 is the accepted Air Force Reserve Pipe Band tartan. If that's the case, why are they weaving something different for the Air Force Reserve Pipe Band???

As I said, I don't think the mystery is at all resolved.

[mookien]

Barb: The quote you used from my post (#23) is about the Lady Jane (STA #2437). My comment went on to state that in my opinion and from the context of my exchange with the STA, that "correct" meant in comparison to the U.S. 2001 Air Force tartan, not the US Air Force (Not Official). Why compare the Lady Jane to a tartan that isn't listed on either the STA or the SRT?

The mystery is not about the Lady Jane, but revolves around Strathmore's US Air Force (Not Official) tartan, which you have clearly shown is NOT the Lady Jane, but a different tartan, not much different, but different nonetheless.

You stated that Strathmore refers to the US Air Force (Not Official) as STA #2437 - The Lady Jane. I have seen no such reference, but perhaps there are some. If so, please point me to them and then there is indeed a mystery, or at least a question.

If one assumes, as seems to be the case, that the US Air Force tartan is a distinct tartan, different than all other registered tartans, then there is no mystery. It's simply a different tartan, perhaps one that has never been registered.

John

[Barb T]

Well, I have to confess that it's as murky as ever. The listing in the Registry is pretty specific about 2437 as being designed by Strathmore and adopted by the USAF Reserve Pipe Band with permission of Strathmore. If Strathmore is weaving something else, unregistered, as their USAF tartan, are you saying that they're basically saying, just kidding, we designed a tartan that was recorded and adopted by the USAF Reserve Pipe band but we're unofficially weaving something else as USAF tartan?? I can't figure out why that would make any sense at all. So, yes, I think there's still a mystery.

[Barb T]

And I'd have to say that the following sites suggest that the USAF pipe band thinks that the Lady Jane became the USAF pipe band tartan:

http://houseoftartan.co.uk/news/letters2.htm#airforce, second question down

http://www.usafdrumcorps.us/
http://usafdrumcorps.us/pipeband/pag...20history.html

[mookien]

Barb: The following comments refer to your posts 33 & 34.

I don't think there is any question that the USAF Reserve Pipe Band tartan (aka Lady Jane) #2437 was designed by Strathmore and adopted by the USAFR Pipe Band, and is universally regarded as "their" tartan. The article by cajunscot (post 13) states as much under the heading "The Lady Jane/USAFR Tartan".

But, Strathmore is without a doubt weaving a tartan with a different threadcount than the Lady Jane. It is the US Air Force (Not Official). I've seen both threadcounts and they reflect precisely the differences that your analysis and pictures clearly show. So, the question (mystery?) may come down to how much can a tartan threadcount change before it becomes another distinct tartan?

As is often mentioned on this site, weavers routinely vary the colors of a given tartan, scale the threadcount up and down to change sett size, and even widen or narrow individual stripes. So, perhaps Strathmore pushed this artistic license to the extent of making the relatively small changes that we see between the Lady Jane and the US Air Force (Not Official). And, perhaps they regard them as the "same" tartan.

Note that their web pages make no mention of the USAFR (Lady Jane) tartan, even though it appears on both the STA and SRT registers. And correspondingly, neither register shows Strathmore's US Air Force (Not Official). Strange, but perhaps telling.

For practical purposes it can be regarded as a new and different tartan, because if you want the Lady Jane you tell your weaver to use the registers' threadcount. If you want the US Air Force (Not Official), you purchase it from Strathmore.

Note that in the answer to Question number 2, the respondent referred to the Lady Jane, but showed a picture of the US Air Force (Not Official). We're not the only ones confused.

[macwilkin]

And I'd have to say that the following sites suggest that the USAF pipe band thinks that the Lady Jane became the USAF pipe band tartan:

http://houseoftartan.co.uk/news/letters2.htm#airforce, second question down

http://www.usafdrumcorps.us/
http://usafdrumcorps.us/pipeband/pag...20history.html

Barb,

The second article on the USAF P & D alumni web site is my article from the STM's site; I agreed to allow them to post it. In my article, I identify the "Mitchell" (also Galbraith/Russell/Hunter) tartan as the one worn by the USAF Pipes & Drums before their disbandment in the early 1970s. This is documented by research by a member of the Company of Military Historians, that produced a full-colour plate of their uniform for their series of historic American military uniforms a number of years ago. If you'd like, I'd be happy to send you a copy of that. My other sources are listed on the STM version of the article.

In my article, I made the statement that the USAFR/Lady Jane tartan has become the de facto USAF tartan, thanks to its popularity -- LL Bean, for example, labeled it the "USAF tartan" when they sold tartan shirts in their "Americana" line. They also labeled the USMA tartan as the US Army tartan, which we know is not the case. I doubt few people know that the USAF Pipes & Drums wore the "Mitchell" tartan, or even saffron kilts at one point. In other words, a lot of men & women who served in the Air Force and the Air Force Reserves have adopted the tartan, regardless of its "official" status.

In any case, during the Christmas break I need to go through this thread and make some updates to the article.

T.

[Barb T]

To add a little more to the mix, have a look at the photo below. It's a pic of our daughter in her USAF Reserve Pipe Band uniform. The sett shows clearly in her plaid, and it matches what Strathmore is weaving as USAF tartan. It does _not_, however, match what the Registry lists as having been adopted as the USAF Reserve Pipe Band tartan. So, to my mind, the question still remains. Is it a Registry error or a weaving error? And for those of you pipers out there, yes, those are gold engraved ferrules on the pipes.....they are truly spectacular!

[seanachie]

The sett shows clearly in her plaid, and it matches what Strathmore is weaving as USAF tartan. It does _not_, however, match what the Registry lists as having been adopted as the USAF Reserve Pipe Band tartan. So, to my mind, the question still remains. Is it a Registry error or a weaving error?

Is there a way to get a DEFINITIVE answer to this question? I have been burned once on getting the wrong tartan and certainly would love knowing the real answer.

[mookien]

seanachie: It depends on what you regard as DEFINITIVE. If you mean a statement/opinion from one or both Registries, then I doubt either will ever favor one tartan over the other. Strathmore will likely favor (and should favor) their current offering - the US Air Force (Not Official) for obvious reasons.

They are two distinct tartans with two unique (though similar) threadcounts - one for the USAF Reserve Pipe Band (aka Lady Jane) and another different one for the US Air Force (Not Official).

If there was an error (eg in transcription from Strathmore to the Registries) in the ancient past - say 10 years ago or more, it is far too late to acknowledge/remedy it now. Too much cloth has been woven and too many kilts have been sewn to now tell a bunch of folks that they have the "wrong" tartan.

By definition, Strathmore is not weaving the wrong tartan. They are weaving the US Air Force (Not Official) according to its own unique threadcount. They are not weaving the tartan shown on the Registries (the Lady Jane), because it is a different tartan. After all, they designed both, and certainly know the difference.

IMHO all is well in tartan land. If you prefer the Lady Jane, ask your kilt maker to have it woven from the threadcount in the Registries. If you prefer the US Air Force (Not Official), your kilt maker can procure it from Strathmore.

mookien (John)

[Barb T]

Just to clarify. There is no such thing as the Lady Jane tartan - just go to the Registry and type in the name, and you'll discover that there is no tartan registered with that name. So, if you asked a weaver to weave you the Lady Jane tartan or the Lady Jane sett, he/she would be unable to find it in the Registry of Scottish tartans, because it is not a registered tartan. So that, actually, is not an option. If you asked a weaver to look up the US Air Force Reserve Pipe Band tartan in the Registry and weave you a length, you would get the following:

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar....aspx?ref=4180

What started this in the first place is that is exactly what I did. And I got a length of tartan that does not match what the USAF Reserve Pipe Band wears in their uniform, as you can see in what Carolyn is wearing in my previous post. So, that's where the mystery lies.

It is most definitely not a question of the Lady Jane vs. the USAFRPB tartan. There is no registered Lady Jane tartan. There _is_ a registered USAFRPB tartan.