More on Septs

[creagdhubh]

Well said, MacSpadger!

Cheers,

[ctbuchanan]

Agree, well said, MacSpadger. I'm first generation US, as I've noted in previous posts and my Scottish cousins think our whole approach to Clans a bit odd. That being said I run the Clan tent for the Buchanans at games all over New England. And many people come to the highland games to "find their clan". It is a very delicate matter on how to handle that. On the one hand one of our primary reasons for being there is to help people explore their Scottish roots and heritage. But on the other hand we have to be careful not to mislead them either. And the whole concept of the sept vs. the clan and the origins of names can be quite a maze to sort out.

And you are quite right that some people will latch on to their "Clan" with fearsome determination. And sad to say, I've had many people come into the tent with a kilt purchased from a less than scrupulous vendor here or in Scotland only to find they were led down the wrong path for whatever reason.

The reality is that short of a full blown genealogy or a Scottish grandmother laying down the law, most people here can never really be certain.

[Peter Crowe]

I quite agree with MacSpadger on this topic. Like him, I know who I am, where I come from (warts and all), and without any smugness or arrogance have 'a guid conceit o' masel'!

[creagdhubh]

I quite agree with MacSpadger on this topic. Like him, I know who I am, where I come from (warts and all), and without any smugness or arrogance have 'a guid conceit o' masel'!

Hahaha! Well said, Peter!

Cheers,

[MacSpadger]

The reality is that short of a full blown genealogy or a Scottish grandmother laying down the law, most people here can never really be certain.

Scottish Grandmother did you say? Elizabeth Bisset, born Newhills, Aberdeenshire, 24th February 1894. I have traced this line of Bissets back to 1722.

Joking aside, I have to say that this may be an important factor here. The Bisset family in 1722 were living in Dyce, Aberdeenshire only 3 miles away from where the Bissets were living in 1894. Scottish records are plentiful and distances not too great.

I do think that things are a lot easier for US and Canadian cousins these days with the likes of Familytreemaker.com and ancestry.com and the Scottish register going online. Much helpful advice for US citizens is given here. I think that if you really want to know your ancestry there has never been a better time.

[creagdhubh]

I think that if you really want to know your ancestry there has never been a better time.

Agreed!!!

[ctbuchanan]

I think that if you really want to know your ancestry there has never been a better time.

True - but many people come to us not having done even the minimal amount of research. All they have is their surname or perhaps their mother's maiden name.
I am fortunate that my great-grandmother left us a very complete genealogy which we have expanded upon using many of the resources you rightfully mention.

[O'Callaghan]

My clan does correspond approximately to my mother's maiden name, but she has traced her branch of the family back to Cork, which is the right Irish county that the clan was from, and there are historical records of there being a line of chiefs and of exactly where the clan lands were before Cromwell sent the Irish chiefs to Connaught. That's good enough for me.

OTOH, I have a Scottish cousin who wears a tartan of the clan that his family is traditionally a sept of, and his late father wore a weathered tartan that I assume was the same clan (weathered tartans all look the same to me), but there is now a clan association and a tartan for their actual family name, dating no further back than the 1980s. I assume most of the members of that association are Americans, LOL!

[McElmurry]

I assume most of the members of that association are Americans, LOL!

Most folks from the US start with a preconceived notion of whether the name of interest is Scottish or Irish and the books of names are written along those lines as well. I think very few people look in both places for possible name sources. Tweak the spelling a bit in a Google search and you can go from the Brieves of Lewis to burning Carrickfergus. I ended up choosing a Morrison tartan but I could have just as easily gone with Ulster. I know (by family tradition) my kin went through Ulster at least once.

[CMcG]

...
Ultimately I think the whole "sept" business could be a bit of harmless fun, (as many in Scotland view the whole business of kilt wearing/Clan membership, to be honest), but I meet many who take the whole thing as if it is gospel truth and it does kind of sadden me on two levels:
1. People are being taken advantage of.
2. People are happy to be taken advantage of just so long as it gives them a sense of belonging to something that they want to be part of, for whatever personal reasons they may have.

But that's just human nature, I guess. We are all still tribal somewhere deep within ourselves. We demonstrate this in many different ways, including joining forums like this where the thing that unites is is a bittie of coloured cloth we buckle round our waists.

How do you suppose people are being taken advantage of? It does seem more like the harmless fun that you suggest, especially in regards to choosing a tartan. I hope no one is discovering their alleged sept/clan and then making life altering, financially crippling decisions based on it A very general sense of belonging and a story to tell about one's choice of tartan should be OK though.

Your use of the words "gospel truth" is actually quite apt; many people enjoy sept/clan connections with more belief or faith than historical evidence. I commend you on the effort you have put into your genealogy! Have you come to a conclusion about what your main clan or sept really is?

This whole discussion is just making me think that the most bulletproof clan/sept affiliation is still an active one, rather than a passive one based on their ancestors; officially joining the clan and/or their association/society.