Earliest use of brass-cantle sporrans?

[eckersley]

I think I've seen the original too... if it was at The National Portrait Gallery, or one of the castles... I can't recall. But in photos it's quite clear that it's sealskin. Nothing else looks remotely like mottled grey sealskin.

Anyhow here's an 18th century portrait which quite clearly shows sealskin, and I've seen the original many times, because it's here in Los Angeles! Yes the one in The National Museums Scotland is an unsigned copy, while the one in the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA) it the signed and dated original. (The copy is somewhat different, see the seperate thread "A Tale of Two Paintings".)

Here's the original, signed J. S. Copley 1780

[eckersley]

I think I've seen the original too... if it was at The National Portrait Gallery, or one of the castles... I can't recall. But in photos it's quite clear that it's sealskin. Nothing else looks remotely like mottled grey sealskin.

Anyhow here's an 18th century portrait which quite clearly shows sealskin, and I've seen the original many times, because it's here in Los Angeles! Yes the one in The National Museums Scotland is an unsigned copy, while the one in the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA) it the signed and dated original. (The copy is somewhat different, see the seperate thread "A Tale of Two Paintings".)

Here's the original, signed J. S. Copley 1780

Albeit just slightly off topic, but as this original rarely sees the light of day, I would like to mention how wonderful it is to see so clearly the double thickness of his tartan in this, the original, portrait. With the exception of the MacIan miniatures, in most portraits where one could see, one sees the belted plaid is worn such that the fabric has clearly two selvages, as is the case here too and can be noticed on the wearer's left where the tartan is carried up over the shoulder. This doubling of the tartan fabric can be seen in the Piper for the Grants (to his right), the famous Lord Mungo (on the lowest edge of his kilt) and a number of others. Most people today seem to take a seven yard double-width piece of tartan and pleat the entire fabric until they have shortened it to a manageable length. However, from the paintings, this one being another example, and from personal experience, the seven or so yards appear to have been doubled back upon themselves to leave a length of only three-and-a-half yards or so of double-width cloth. This is then pleated in the usual way. This also supports the lack of the possibility to have a tie string to keep or re-do the pleats in the rear, as the tie string would need to be threaded though both thicknesses of the cloth. It seems to me that the plaid underwent such development as to remove the double-width aspect of it (I have not yet found paintings of belted plaids with seams indicating two lengths of single-width tartan sewn lengthwise together but came across a short length of Black Watch on sale in an antique shop in New York where that was the case), and that the lower "half" of the plaid, rather than being folded back upon itself as had been done, was pleated along its seven or more yard length, then ultimately to have its pleats sewn down. The double fringe on so many modern short kilts perhaps reflects this older belted plaid tradition of folding the tartan back upon itself to shorten the cloth to an actually manageable length of three-and-a-half yards.

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[georgeetta]

rob roys sporran has a brass cantle adn leatheren bag ..was in hands of Argyll ?
his sgian and a ..a snuff box ..they are shown on a book plate way back ..

many Black Watch officers of 1700's had their paintings done ..Montgomerie or Campbell had a badger one with a square top plain old pourse think ..chekc out ..The Lt Col Francis MacNab's by Raeburn ..

I've a book Scottish tartans ..or tartan book ..had many 1700's paitings .

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[georgeetta]

guy in paiting i think is Lt Col Hugh ? Montgomery ..Montgomery's highlanders french indian war ..Pennsylvania and New York ..I've seen John Campbell's to and it was misnamed back and forth ..

I'll try and check ..also ..ask ........ummmmmm .......fit's his name .....uhhhhhhhh ......mmmmmmm ....pfffffft .......................George Neumann American Revolutionary War expert ..

sorry

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[georgeetta]

sorry far as casting goes ..
many parts black powder gun parts ..buttplates ..many mnay decorations are cast ..wax and sand ..they might toss you a bone ..my Uncle was a mouler ..Cpl Seaforths Bren Gunner ..post WW2 .

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[longhuntr74]

sorry far as casting goes ..
many parts black powder gun parts ..buttplates ..many mnay decorations are cast ..wax and sand ..they might toss you a bone ..my Uncle was a mouler ..Cpl Seaforths Bren Gunner ..post WW2 .

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What are you talking about...in any of these three posts...but especially this post? I can't follow what you are trying to say?

[artificer]

What are you talking about...in any of these three posts...but especially this post? I can't follow what you are trying to say?

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Grammar and punctuation are our friends. Let's make sure to use them so our posts our intelligible to all.
ith:

[creagdhubh]

***

Grammar and punctuation are our friends. Let's make sure to use them so our posts our intelligible to all.
ith:

***

[Spartan Tartan]

What are you talking about...in any of these three posts...but especially this post? I can't follow what you are trying to say?

I was having the same thought. I am able to make sense of the referred to posts either.

[georgeetta]

yes, very sorry about that .
it's a public keyboard and I get delays ..
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