Membership Discussion of Possible Change to Rule #12

**Steve Ashton** · 9th September 12, 01:08 AM

In posts 18 and 19 to this thread Tobus and Mookien asked direct questions.

The best answer we can give is that the staff have been aware for some time that a re-write of Rule #12 may clear up any apparent confusion. This is why we brought this to the general membership. We would like your input, suggestions and comments.

**Jock Scot** · 9th September 12, 03:44 AM

Dual post, deleted.

**Jock Scot** · 9th September 12, 03:46 AM

I was once told by a renowned leader of men that "rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind adherence of idiots".

In my years on this website there has been an awful lot of wisdom and thankfully precious little sign of idiocy. Yes, it never hurts to adjust the rules if circumstance dictates it and an open discussion could identify a need for change. That is healthy and shows strong leadership when "the management" are not above asking for opinions.

We do have a wonderful website----perfect? Well no, but pretty near, I would suggest when compared to many websites, but can we do better? Probably, but one thing is for sure change for change sake will not help one bit. So what would I like to see for Rule 12?

Well as long as we have "meander" room(we do) and the members accept that each Mod has his own level of tolerance of discretion(the members do, I think), then most of the time all will be well. Will it be perfect? No. But for sure, the more complicated the wording of any rule, the more stifling, illogical and frustrating it will get(sadly like rule 11)to some members and I for one would not want that.

**Woodsheal** · 9th September 12, 05:08 AM

The fact of the matter is that Rule# 12 is incompatible with this descriptor for the Miscellaneous Forum:

"- This is where our members can discuss those things in their lives not necessarily related to the Kilt."

Do requests for prayers in that forum, for example, generate reports or complaints to the Mods? I doubt it, yet such threads are in violation of Rule#12 as it stands.

The simplest solution is to waive Rule #12 for the Miscellaneous Forum (making it truly "miscellaneous"), or ditch said Forum - making XMarks totally about kilts with no straying from that path. I vote for the former.

(And now that I think on it, the entire "The Pub" forum is in violation of Rule#12, as well...!

)

**Grizzly** · 9th September 12, 05:28 AM

I agree with Brian above. Surely the simplest thing to do would be to add the following wording to the start of rule #12 "With the exception of the Miscellaneous Forum"

This would mean that any errant or off topic posts could be moved to the miscellaneous forum to start a new thread which would be allowed a greater latitude and at the same time the extant thread could be kept open on the original topic.

**Peter Crowe** · 9th September 12, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by Grizzly

I agree with Brian above. Surely the simplest thing to do would be to add the following wording to the start of rule #12 "With the exception of the Miscellaneous Forum"

This would mean that any errant or off topic posts could be moved to the miscellaneous forum to start a new thread which would be allowed a greater latitude and at the same time the extant thread could be kept open on the original topic.

***

**ScotFree** · 9th September 12, 06:30 AM

If I may be permitted to throw my tuppence into the ring here, while I haven't had the years of experience on this forum in my few months of observations, I can say that I have seen:

1. The rules are very far from draconian. They promote civil and focused discussions.
2. The Mods rarely jump in waving the rule book unless they've received complaints from the membership.
3. If the Mods do feel the need to point to a rule, they give ample warnings well in advance. Very likely to avoid complaints from the membership.
4. The rules are enforced evenly and fairly. The behind the scenes discussions frequently result in a decision that the rule HAS NOT been violated and threads restored.
5. As others have mentioned, and I have witnessed myself, havoc rules on many other boards, when emotions and trolling run rampant. This does not happen here.
6. I can't imagine why anyone would find an enforcement of a civil code of behavior objectionable. The rules are pretty clear, easily accessible for review, and folks, we all know what they are. Most people here have enough experience on the board to know what the rules are, how they are applied and when they are being bent or broken ... then don't act surprised or offended when action is taken. If you're unsure about a rule ... just ask. The folks who run this board are very approachable and responsive. It is the posting membership's responsibility to ensure that they are following the rules.
7. If the community has changed to the point that one of the rules is no longer practical, civil disobedience is not the way to change it.
9. We are all human, even the Mods. We all have our bias, perspective and ideas. Occasionally mistakes will be made. But my applause and gratitude goes out to the Moderators for volunteering their valuable time and energy to keeping this a viable and enjoyable place for everyone to discuss what we are here to talk about. And more so to Mr. Ashton for creating this forum for all to discuss and enjoy.

Ok, this turned into a shilling's worth. Keep the change.

**Woodsheal** · 9th September 12, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by ScotFree

If I may be permitted to throw my tuppence into the ring here, while I haven't had the years of experience on this forum in my few months of observations, I can say that I have seen:

1. The rules are very far from draconian. They promote civil and focused discussions.
2. The Mods rarely jump in waving the rule book unless they've received complaints from the membership.
3. If the Mods do feel the need to point to a rule, they give ample warnings well in advance. Very likely to avoid complaints from the membership.
4. The rules are enforced evenly and fairly. The behind the scenes discussions frequently result in a decision that the rule HAS NOT been violated and threads restored.
5. As others have mentioned, and I have witnessed myself, havoc rules on many other boards, when emotions and trolling run rampant. This does not happen here.
6. I can't imagine why anyone would find an enforcement of a civil code of behavior objectionable. The rules are pretty clear, easily accessible for review, and folks, we all know what they are. Most people here have enough experience on the board to know what the rules are, how they are applied and when they are being bent or broken ... then don't act surprised or offended when action is taken. If you're unsure about a rule ... just ask. The folks who run this board are very approachable and responsive. It is the posting membership's responsibility to ensure that they are following the rules.
7. If the community has changed to the point that one of the rules is no longer practical, civil disobedience is not the way to change it.
9. We are all human, even the Mods. We all have our bias, perspective and ideas. Occasionally mistakes will be made. But my applause and gratitude goes out to the Moderators for volunteering their valuable time and energy to keeping this a viable and enjoyable place for everyone to discuss what we are here to talk about. And more so to Mr. Ashton for creating this forum for all to discuss and enjoy.

Ok, this turned into a shilling's worth. Keep the change.

That's all well and good - and eloquently stated! And, we can all agree with these sentiments, but it doesn't address the contradictions between Rule #12 and certain sections of this Forum, which is the point of this thread it seems to me....

**Riverkilt** · 9th September 12, 07:44 AM

I'm with Grizzly and Peter. "With the exception of the miscellaneous forum and the pub,......"

Think all the other forums I haunt have some sort of pub or lounge feature for unrelated posts. I think those venues help keep the main kilt forums more focused.

**xman** · 9th September 12, 01:39 PM

Excellent discussion ladies and gentlemen.

I agree with the addition. "With the exception of ..." to the wording of Rule #12. I might also suggest that rather than, "will be subject to removal", perhaps, "may be subject to removal", would allow a little wriggle room for the thread to drift into friendly banter territory so long as the spirit of the rules are kept in mind. This may or may not be appreciated by the mods, but it would seem to be more accurately reflective of actual practice.