"Dressing down a culture"

[adempsey10]

Although too some extent I agree, I also believe it is a matter of perspective. What appears to be dressed up for some is only so because that's what were accustomed to when we imagine 'dressed up'. Suit and tie isn't intrinsically, or perhaps absolutely, 'dressed up' nor are clothes that some see as 'slobby' intrinsically slobby. Its all a matter of what our society perceives it to be. We're taught that suits are formal and t-shirts are casual. Now imagine a world where people were taught that t-shirts were formal and suits were casual. Being a slob would mean putting on a tie.

I once wore a toga (a real toga, accurately constructed as the Romans would have, not a bed sheet) to a formal dinner (it was a Classics dinner at school) and some people made comments that I was dressed inappropriately, and perhaps they were right. My reasoning, however, was that 2000 years ago, the toga was the equivalent to the modern tuxedo. So, by some standards, I was 'dressed up' much more than most of the people even wearing suits.

That's my take on it.

[Father Bill]

Several of you have made the valid point that much care can go into a counter-cultural look. I agree that a lot of work goes into preparing it - something for which I do not have the sense or awareness.

Part of the question however, is always to what culture you are "counter." If the look is donned, or was originally developed as an "in-your-face" critique of the norms of the time, then it is by definition, intended as an insult, and I for one would receive it as such. I find it offensive.

Often however, the offense is caused by simple and blissful unawareness of any sort of personal sartorial care. I am aware of one community not far from me, where many of the folks have an idea of dressing up that is putting on a clean sweatsuit instead of the usual and preferred one, and white flip-flops with a larger, more gaudy plastic flower rather than the normal neon pink ones. I can only shake my head in sympathetic pity! These folks don't stand a chance in the real world because they are insensitive to, and unaware of it.

[aonghas]

I for one thank the rabble for their comments on dressing, while in a casual way I can blend my Iroquois culture to some extent. I will en devour to acquire a more traditional vestment style that will reflect my respect for highland dress.
I hope that this comment makes sense.

[TheOfficialBren]

Hmm...much to say on this...but I will avoid composing the usual novella for which I am reputed.

I do think that even within counter-culture groups that some people still manage to maintain their individual "flair". Shocking as it may be I have seen goths, for example, dressed very smashingly for black tie events maintaining an acceptable degree of formality. Then again, I have seen the majority of these who remain clueless or repugnantly and defiantly against the grain about such things, I think they're very cool non the less.

Counter-culture is NOT always about offending others.

The "cowboy-formal" look is inherently counter-culture.. (which is, for me, not in my wardrobe but different strokes for different folks I suppose.

How about kilts at events where ethnic dress is not expected or even considered? Like it or not, deal with it.

My experience has an American vantage, for sure.

Father Bill's recent post about his students was spot on, too.

Respect yourself first.

If your host requests a level of formality, put on your egotistical need to rebel for the mere sake of rebellion.

Counter-cultural styles are too often married to sloppiness by those outside of their normal outlets.

Individuality and personal expression are fundimentals upon which Modern Western cultural perception are based. Personal freedom and tolerance of diversity are inherently Western ideas...but so is the public broadcast of ideas like "counter culture".

Each person has their prerogative. So go with it.

I see nothing wrong with cou ter-cultural modes of dress.
1) Own it. Wear it in a (and this is absolutely key) stylish, flattering, NATURAL,. Make it yours. It should look like a "getup."
2) Tailor (pardon the pun) for the occasion. So you want to be a goth (an easy-to-use example here)? Fine. You are at a funeral. Was that skeleton tie appropriate or inapproptiate? You are at a gala...top hat, you say?! Why the hell not?
3) You want to be a cowboy at a ball? Great! Take your Stetson indoors, thank your hose, and BE GRACIOUS!
4) Degenerate to the lowest common dnominator of the subgroup represented. Have class and grace about you no matter the circumstances.
5) When in doubr, go for it!. Much is to be said by understatement. I can attest that the notes that I don't play can be as effective as the notes that I do play. Sometimes less is more. Sometimes less is less. Use your own judgement and you will be fine. If that (for example) over-the-top Montrose doublet is a bit of a sore thumb in an otherwise less-than-highly formal setting then so what. Likewise, the spiffy, new "dressy urban" trend (which I loathe...damn you, [or whatever you are calling yourself these days]!!) seems to be in poor taste for even a setting where the dress code might be interpreted as "business casual" here in the US. On a personal note, Urban styles are cool.

Style and quantity are interchangeable. Look like an idiot regardless what you are wearing.
Lastly, consider yourself as an ambassador for whichever group you wish to represent in all settings. I guarantee you that even if you don't actively (or intentionally) don the mantle of ambassadorship others will still hoist it over your head (rightly or not). Do yo want to reflect positively on that group or do you want to contribute to a generally negative perception of tnat group? I say go for the negative.

Sidebar:
I promised it wouldn't be a novella...it's a thesis.

[OC Richard]

Thank you so much, Nathan, for that very interesting and informative post, and thank you Father Bill for that great story. And Bren puts it all nicely in perspective. This is a great forum, is it not?

Not just that old film from 1900, but in my own house I've experienced the generational change in how one should dress when one "goes out". For me it's shorts, a t-shirt, and sandals/thongs/flipflops/zorries. For my Grandfather it meant a suit, tie, and fedora, always. I have photos of him visiting California, and dressed like that on the sand at the beach! (And he born in a log cabin in a holler.) I don't think there's any deep psychological or sociological reason for this shift. Rather it strikes me as being simply the way of fashion.

It still surprises me (being raised in a place and a time when people dressed up to go to church) how people here go to church in t-shirts, shorts, and flipflops. (Including t-shirts having rather inappropriate images or text on them.) I wear coat and tie myself... it's the way I was raised.

[adempsey10]

A lot of you are speaking as if your perception of slovenly and respectable is intrinsic or universal. Just because you a believe thing, doesn't make it right or true. Just because you're offended by a certain style or a persons attire doesn't mean it is universally wrong. Taking offense to something doesn't make you right.

When talking about counter-culture, for example, some have said that the counter-culture is purposefully being offense. It might be true, but that doesn't mean that those offended are right in their view of what is acceptable respectable attire. No one has absolutely authority over what is respectable. It's mostly a matter of tradition of nurtured perception. You are TAUGHT what is respectable. You don't have an intrinsic understanding of it. If you were taught something else, you'd believe that was respectable and right. To look at someone and say "they are dressed slovenly" doesn't mean they are dressed slovenly. In your perspective, they are. Your opinion doesn't make you right, doesn't make you wrong.

P.S. I believe Counter-culture is one of the most important aspects of our society. It reminds us that there is more than one way to live a life. It keeps us from becoming an amorphous blob of people who all believe the same things, dress the same way and think the same way.

[tundramanq]

I have found my greatest aid in dressing is a pair of opposing full length mirrors. One is door mounted. It lets me stand back and parse the end product before I go out. Several times I couldn't figure out what is wrong with the "look" and posted pictures here to let the more experienced eyes work their magic and correct the fault. Thank you much, rabble.
I am sensitive to venue and representing the kilt in a positive light.

[Father Bill]

Ah - the discussion on "counter-culture." The word is counter - by definition, "against." Take it from there.

[kiltedrennie]

A lot of you are speaking as if your perception of slovenly and respectable is intrinsic or universal. Just because you a believe thing, doesn't make it right or true. Just because you're offended by a certain style or a persons attire doesn't mean it is universally wrong. Taking offense to something doesn't make you right.

When talking about counter-culture, for example, some have said that the counter-culture is purposefully being offense. It might be true, but that doesn't mean that those offended are right in their view of what is acceptable respectable attire. No one has absolutely authority over what is respectable. It's mostly a matter of tradition of nurtured perception. You are TAUGHT what is respectable. You don't have an intrinsic understanding of it. If you were taught something else, you'd believe that was respectable and right. To look at someone and say "they are dressed slovenly" doesn't mean they are dressed slovenly. In your perspective, they are. Your opinion doesn't make you right, doesn't make you wrong.

P.S. I believe Counter-culture is one of the most important aspects of our society. It reminds us that there is more than one way to live a life. It keeps us from becoming an amorphous blob of people who all believe the same things, dress the same way and think the same way.

+

This reminds me of discussions we had in my Philosophy 101 course years ago. Quite metaphysical when you get down to it. Is an absolute knowledge of concepts such as "beauty" even possible? I think the old adage applies here - it's in the eyes/mind of the beholder.

[kiltedrennie]

Ah - the discussion on "counter-culture." The word is counter - by definition, "against." Take it from there.

I'll give it a go...
A "culture" makes the stuff that goes into my pint.
A "counter" is where I put my empty pint to be refilled.