Kilt Length - Above Knee or Mid-Knee?

[EagleJCS]

OCR.

As you know I take little interest in civilian pipe bands and even less in their internal procedures, but as a matter of interest does the Pipe/Drum Major have any direct influence on how the members of the civilian band dress? If they have and I have always assumed in my ignorance that they have, then why are they not doing something about their bands appearance? Do they not know how the kilt should be worn for best effect, or do they not care? Or maybe I have been mistaken in their overall influence of the band?

As a member of a pipe band, I think I can try to answer this one...

Unfortunately, Jock, most civilian pipe bands (here in the States anyway) are made up of volunteers. Some of these bands (pejoratively called 'street' bands by some in the competitive piping community) are happy to have anyone join the band and make a joyful noise together. They may or may not wear a uniform, and may or may not wear the kilt and accouterments correctly. Since they're volunteers, some people don't feel pressured to wear the kit the way they're told to. "I don't like it up there", "It feels weird", "It's uncomfortable there", "I can't breathe with the kilt that high", "If you don't let me wear it the way I want to, I'll take my pipes/drum & go home", etc.

Some bands, however, are competition bands, and try to do a better job at dress & deportment (D&D), even if the band isn't being graded on it. The EUSPBA - Eastern United States Pipe Band Association - doesn't grade bands on D&D, just the drum majors, which is a solo competition not connected with band performances. Some competitions may employ a separate judge for grading a band's D&D, but that grade doesn't affect the musical grading/outcome. Wearing a uniform (matching kilts, hose, etc.) and calling it a uniform helps with getting everyone on the same "page". This may also help to explain why some band members don't wear their kilts, etc., to/from a competition. (They don't want to damage/soil the uniform.)

While I was pipe sergeant in my band (a competition band), I tried to encourage wearing all of the kit properly and would occasionally pull people aside to gently admonish and assist with correcting errors (kilt at or just above the knee, please; hose 2-3 fingers below the knee; garter flashes on the outsides of the legs, not one on the inside and one on the outside of each leg, etc.). I also try to set the example and wear the kit correctly myself.

[Jock Scot]

Thank you John, your reply is pretty much as I thought the situation might be. Volunteer civilian bands are not bound by military regulations and discipline that I quite understand and accept and as volunteers they have the option of walking off whenever it suits them. However to play a musical instrument in a band does require considerable discipline in many ways and if those disciplines are not adhered to to the best of each members ability then the band will sound and look like a discordant and unruly rabble. A pipe band wears the kilt, perhaps trews, as that is what being a member of a pipe band does, its part of the package. So wearing ones band attire in a slovenly way is really a reflection on the whole band and the reasons for not dressing properly is just a lame excuse and should not be acceptable to any and all band members.

Yes I understand a group of musicians getting together for a jamming session where some incredible music can emerge and of course ones dress is on an anything goes basis, but a pipe band is entirely different and discipline in one's musical skills is only a part of being in a pipe band, the music, the sound, the look, the swagger, the pride are all part and parcel of a pipe band. To not dress smartly is just letting the side down and it matters not how good the music is if the band looks a mess and those members of the band who don't understand that are in fact, best to go home forthwith.

[McMurdo]

Top of the knee for me or slightly above

[OC Richard]

Attachment 27982In the 18th Century, the length and placement of the gap, well it varied......

You will note, if you look at a large number of 18th century images, that there is a marked difference between actual portraits painted from life by respected artists, and fanciful and/or comical illustrations such as the one you posted. The latter often show the kilt absurdly short.

Here is a lovely portrait painted from life by perhaps the most well-known portraitist of his time, John Singleton Copley, of the same period as the comical engraving above.



BYW this is the signed and dated original hanging at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art. The one at the National Museums Scotland is an inferior unsigned undated copy.

[OC Richard]

OCR.

As you know I take little interest in civilian pipe bands and even less in their internal procedures, but as a matter of interest does the Pipe/Drum Major have any direct influence on how the members of the civilian band dress? If they have and I have always assumed in my ignorance that they have, then why are they not doing something about their bands appearance? Do they not know how the kilt should be worn for best effect, or do they not care? Or maybe I have been mistaken in their overall influence of the band?

Very good questions!

For one thing, civilian competition pipe bands usually don't have a Drum Major on the roster, because they are not allowed in competition. Drum Majors are great for parades and such, but around here only a few bands have regular Drum Majors.

What you have, in the bands I've been in over the last 40 years, are a few "old hands" who wear their kilt properly and provide guidance to the others. So, right before a band is about to go into competition there might be some friendly reminders like "Sean, your tie is crooked" or "Bill, could you fix your hose?" or some such. Soon enough everybody knows how to wear everything.

At The Worlds in Scotland they have a Dress and Deportment judge (usually a RSM or the like) and they give a D&D trophy. I've never seen that here. Since dress isn't judged it's possible for bands to be sloppy, but usually there's an unwritten/unspoken peer pressure thing for bands to look smart.

Here's a local band, Prince Charles, showing the pipers in general wearing their kilts well. There's a couple centuries of kiltwearing experience in that front rank! Note you don't see a gap between the top of the kilt and the waistcoat, all the kilts are centered, none are worn super-low, the flashes are worn in a uniform manner, and (a small thing perhaps) it appears that everyone's shirt sleeves are the proper length.



I know there's the old piper v drummer rivalry thing, but I think I'm safe in saying that one will see drummers wearing their kilts too low more often than pipers. The biggest offenders are the teenagers, usually.

[Luke MacGillie]

You will note, if you look at a large number of 18th century images, that there is a marked difference between actual portraits painted from life by respected artists, and fanciful and/or comical illustrations such as the one you posted. The latter often show the kilt absurdly short.

Here is a lovely portrait painted from life by perhaps the most well-known portraitist of his time, John Singleton Copley, of the same period as the comical engraving above.



BYW this is the signed and dated original hanging at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art. The one at the National Museums Scotland is an inferior unsigned undated copy.

I agree the painting you posted is quite amazing. But it is not without issues, at least from a material culture standpoint. It was painted to commemorate LTC Montgomerie's service as Commander of the 77th, but was done many years after the fact, and shows uniform styles of the time it was painted, not of the 57-63 time frame that the regiment was in existence. The white waistcoat, lapelled coat and knit hose and bonnet style are all late 1790's in style. The pairing of the buttons on the regimental is problematic as well, as the 77th Was the 1st Highland Battalion at Raising, not the 2d.

The image I chose to post was not one that was made as a mockery of Highlanders, there are many of those to be sure, but is from the 1757 "New Highland Military Discipline." The short wear of the plaid is shown here, as well as other 1760's images including one showing a pair of officers from Fraser's Highlanders in Quebec after it had surrendered and another image from the Ohio Country showing an enlisted man of either the 77th or 42nd at the conclusion of Pontiac's war.

[OC Richard]

Be that as it may, if you post ten 18th century formal portraits painted from life, and ten crude engravings, the difference between them will be obvious, one of the differences being kilt length.

Note also the engraving you posted shows the tartan of the kilt (great kilt) on the bias, which is impossible.

BTW note the many similarities, of odd posture, tilt of the head, expression, tartan on the bias, etc between that engraving and this one.



About the Copley, I have no concern about whether or not the clothes he's wearing represent some period prior to the time the portrait was painted, quite the opposite, my concern is only that it's a fine portrait painted from life. Its very value rests in the fact that it accurately portrays the subject as he stood before the painter... otherwise it would be a work of fantasy rather than portraiture.

[Luke MacGillie]

Fashionable people thronging St James's Park, c.1745 Attributed to Joseph Nickolls

[Alan H]

I have some kilts that hit me at the top of the knee, two that are somewhere around the middle and one that's about an inch above the knee. I wear them all and go about my business and don't worry about it. I have other, more pressing things to worry about.

[Katia]

As a member of a pipe band, I think I can try to answer this one...

Unfortunately, Jock, most civilian pipe bands (here in the States anyway) are made up of volunteers. Some of these bands (pejoratively called 'street' bands by some in the competitive piping community) are happy to have anyone join the band and make a joyful noise together. They may or may not wear a uniform, and may or may not wear the kilt and accouterments correctly.

In addition, members may be outfitted from whatever is on hand for spare uniforms, and these will not fit as if the kilt was custom-made for the wearer. Often it may be a case of "this is the one that fits the best," and "good enough" is usually the standard.

(But I admit that I do wish that "tips" would be presented to members on the correct way of wearing one's bonnet, lacing one's brogues, etc.)