A question for our Irish kiltie brothers

[flairball]

I think Chef is on point here, though I completely understand Porricks point with the Levi's.
Cowboy hats, Levi's, and Kilts have all been adopted in different areas of the world, but that doesn't mean they hold any cultural significance to the society they have been adopted by. They may hold cultural significance to some for personal reasons. It seems to me however that the cultural significance of them must be understood by the general population of that culture it(kilt, levis, cowboyhat, etc..)is said to represent. The point Chef makes about kilts being recognized as part of Scottish culture by the Scots is the back bone of the argument. The Irish population widely doesn't believe the kilt hold any cultural significance to them, and recognize it as Scottish.

I believe this subject goes hand in hand with knowing the history and significance of the tartan one chooses. When one inquires about tartan choice they often are told that any tartan of their choosing in fine if they know the history of the clan it represent, and wear the tartan respctfully. Why must one educate themself about a tartan when others can fictionalize cultural significance?

Ayin, I understand your angle, but none of the Irish I've spoken to accept the kilt as a part of their heritage. If the Irish are saying it's Scottish, how does that make it Irish?

So I'll pose the question again. For those of Irish descent who wear a kilt as a representation of your Irish heritage, what is it about the kilt that represents Ireland?

By the way, answers such as; most non-kilted people don't know jack about Irish heritage, so I've chosen to pull the wool (not your wool kilt please) over their eyes, is an acceptable answer.

[McClef]

My reply to the above discussion.

What makes one kilt different to another kilt in terms of significance and meaning?

The Tartan.

Tartan design has outgrown the clan system so that there are tartans to represent nations, states, counties, areas, families, occupations etc etc.

That's how a tradition begins, with something that is so identified. In time new tartans become recognised and identified and when they appear on a kilt the Scottish origin of the garment itself will be lessened in the conciousness. When I wear the Brithwe Dewi Sant tartan for example, more and more people recognise and identify it with Wales and the more people wear it the more it becomes so identified.

When I wear the Cornish National it has been equally surprising who has recognised it - they have thought of Cornwall first and Scotland second.

When a tartan becomes established that's more than half the battle of the kilt following.

In Ireland as much as Wales or Cornwall.

[flairball]

McClef, well put.

In this case the tartan is of principle importance, and seeing as a tartan of significance exists, why not make a kilt in that tartan? A kilt, even though not a traditional garment, is the best way to show off a tartan.

I touched on this in the original post, but you spelled it out nicely.

Thanks

[Ayin McFye]

So I'll pose the question again. For those of Irish descent who wear a kilt as a representation of your Irish heritage, what is it about the kilt that represents Ireland?

By the way, answers such as; most non-kilted people don't know jack about Irish heritage, so I've chosen to pull the wool (not your wool kilt please) over their eyes, is an acceptable answer.

I am both Irish and Scottish, but I tend to embrace my Irish heritage more, just because I know more about it, and it was around alot growing up. I will openly admit that I am a stubborn person and on that note, whether it be "historically accurate" by the opinions of some people on this list or not doesn't truly matter to me. There is no conclusive evidence that either the scottish created the kilt or the irish or anyone else for that matter. And frankly i don't care who did. My Irish family name is Riley, and we have our Tartan, because my "Ancestors" decided that they would wear kilts. I embrace my Irish Heritage by embracing the same thing that those who came before me embraced.

I'm still trying to figure out why you want an Irishman to justify what they do. The Scottish are not "better" or "more justified" than anyone, nor are the Irish or Welsh. We are all brothers and most of us are of direct celtic decent. Whether you be Irish/Scottish/Welsh/Cornish, doesn't matter to me at all. I am not "pulling the wool" over anyones eyes by wearing a kilt. I will continue to wear it proud from this day forward until the day that i die, and there is nobody nomatter how acredited they may be that will ever take that away from me.

I apologize for jumping on my little soap box there, but i was always raised that a true man defends what he loves. And I love Ireland.

[macwilkin]

I am both Irish and Scottish, but I tend to embrace my Irish heritage more, just because I know more about it, and it was around alot growing up. I will openly admit that I am a stubborn person and on that note, whether it be "historically accurate" by the opinions of some people on this list or not doesn't truly matter to me. There is no conclusive evidence that either the scottish created the kilt or the irish or anyone else for that matter. And frankly i don't care who did. My Irish family name is Riley, and we have our Tartan, because my "Ancestors" decided that they would wear kilts. I embrace my Irish Heritage by embracing the same thing that those who came before me embraced.

I'm still trying to figure out why you want an Irishman to justify what they do. The Scottish are not "better" or "more justified" than anyone, nor are the Irish or Welsh. We are all brothers and most of us are of direct celtic decent. Whether you be Irish/Scottish/Welsh/Cornish, doesn't matter to me at all. I am not "pulling the wool" over anyones eyes by wearing a kilt. I will continue to wear it proud from this day forward until the day that i die, and there is nobody nomatter how acredited they may be that will ever take that away from me.

I apologize for jumping on my little soap box there, but i was always raised that a true man defends what he loves. And I love Ireland.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you cannot embrace the kilt & tartan as a symbol of your Irish heritage; only that the claim of some that the kilt was worn by other Celtic nations and has some "ancient pedigree" is incorrect. The kilt & tartan were adopted by other Celtic nations, beginning in the late 19th century, and have become part of some people's tradition; yet the roots of the kilt & tartan are firmly Scottish. That's not trying to "one-up" anybody, but it is a historical fact.

Our resident scholar, Matt Newsome, has written extensively on this subject. His article, "The Early History of the Kilt", explains just that, and concludes that the kilt is indeed Scottish in origin:

http://www.albanach.org/kilt.html

But, as McClef noted, the tartan has moved beyond Scotland and now represents numerous towns, states, provinces, nations, people, etc.

So, please, do not take offense. No one is trying to offend you.

Regards,

Todd

[Panache]

If this isn't too off topic,

Regarding saffron kilts PioBear wrote:

... they adopted the kilt, making it distinctively Irish by the traditional color of the léine. .. the most common and widely recognized is the solid colored saffron kilt as worn by Bernard FitzPatrick and Pierce O’Mahoney while campaigning for home rule in Parliament in the 1880’s, by Douglas Hyde, the first President of Ireland in 1938, and by the pipers of the Irish Defense Forces and the Royal Irish Regiment today...

Why is saffron distinctly Irish? As an American I have been raised to attribute green to Ireland (The Emerald Isle). So I was curious if their historic / religious significance to saffron.

Cheers

Panache

[Ayin McFye]

Sorry if i got a bit defensive before, it truly doesn't bother me that the Scottish invented the kilt or if the Arabians invented it 5000 years ago. I just think it's weird that i'm being asked to justify why I think the kilt has some Irish connection to my heritage, when i feel that it clearly does. I will fully agree that the kilt is more widely spread in Scotland more than anywhere else and is very much a part of their culture. It's just that when someone suggests that a simple answer such as "pulling the wool over the unkilted peoples eyes" is acceptable doesn't make much sense. I am not trying to deceive anyone by wearing an Irish Tartan. I am trying to be proud of my family line.

Like i said before i am Scottish as well, and could just as easily get away with wearing a MacKenzie tartan. My grandmother was born and raised in Scotland. I just don't know that side of my family as well.

I am truly loving this discussion and I do not with to offend anyone either. I love that we can discuss these things without name bashing or anything of the sort. I have actually learned quite a few things from this Thread alone, which i think is awesome. Cheers to all of you!

[Monkey@Arms]

If this isn't too off topic,

Regarding saffron kilts PioBear wrote:



Why is saffron distinctly Irish? As an American I have been raised to attribute green to Ireland (The Emerald Isle). So I was curious if their historic / religious significance to saffron.

Cheers

Panache

Hey Panache,

A traditional clothing dye thought to have been used in ancient Ireland. See http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/saffron.htm

Best regards,

Jake

[McClef]

I found the last few paragraphs of Matt's article very interesting regarding how tartan "traditions", even within Scotland, developed.

"People assumed this (clan tartans) was a traditional practice, and they were more inclined to change history to suit their views than to change their views to suit history."

There is indeed a danger that this will lead some people, often with commercial motives, to read things into history that are not really there.

But that is, and should be no bar to, future developments. Just as tartans continue to develop and proliferate, so the kilt has broken out of its origins as a belted plaid in the Highlands of Scotland to have a wider Celtic and masculine appeal.

[flairball]

Ayin, You actually gave me a thought out intelligent answer. Thank you. Your ancestors creating the Riley tartan is quite a connection. The fact that they were kilt wearer too is quite a connection as well. Kilt wearers in Ireland weren't too common. You must have a strong family.

Please post a swatch of the Riley tartan. I've been unable to find it. A sur-name search directed me to the Tara tartan, which is quite handsome. Is this the same?