Bogus commercial heraldry....

**James MacMillan** · 8th June 08, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by sirdaniel1975

So you've found out your blood line doesn't tie to the clan you thought. Perhaps your blood line doesn't tie to any clan. Then be proud of whatever your bloodline ties to. Be proud to be a commoner (by commoner I mean someone who is not nobility). Wear your district tartan, use the Scotland crest badge, get your district blazer patch.

And if we are brutally honest - this applies to the vast majority of us.... And there's nothing wrong with it!!!

Of course we would all like the knock on the door that would tell us that we are the lost King (or Queen) of Upper Flagolia and we own six castles and as many grand estates, and we are set for life......... That's what they call fantasy!

**haukehaien** · 9th June 08, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by sirdaniel1975

But I'm sure you'll agree that too many take what they receive for $29.95 as gospel. This is the very reason why I started this discussion. I seem to encounter someone about once a month who begins to tell me that they're related to the Duke of Argyle , James II, or some other somebody. Because the family crest people told them so.

Yes, until you do the research, you'll be stuck with this stuff. Me? I started with the classic "If your name is 'X' then you're a sept of clan 'Y'" stuff and thought I was a descendant of Clan Donald. Now I know (know because I did the research) that the earliest Scottish ancestor I can trace was a tenant farmer in Fife. And oddly, knowing (really knowing) about Malcom Philp and his tenant farm in Carnock is more satisfying than a misty, made-up connection to someone else.

**Dukeof Kircaldy** · 9th June 08, 10:31 AM

Or, you can take your pick, There are loads of ancestral coats of arms in my family. Fortunately, none of them I can say I really like. Do I feel like having someone come up with one for me? Heck no!

I think the use of the term "fraud" is a bit severe here since all that is being presented is a that you are being deceived of something. These people are selling some form of history.

And as others have pointed out, it can add as impetus to learning our family history.

My dad traces his family back to the 12th Century, which isn't as interesting to me as my mother's American mutt family. I started doing research on that based upon curiosity and orphaned family photos.

Scratch back far enough and I am sure most people have interesting ancestors.

**macwilkin** · 9th June 08, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dukeof Kircaldy

Or, you can take your pick, There are loads of ancestral coats of arms in my family. Fortunately, none of them I can say I really like. Do I feel like having someone come up with one for me? Heck no!

I think the use of the term "fraud" is a bit severe here since all that is being presented is a that you are being deceived of something. These people are selling some form of history.

And as others have pointed out, it can add as impetus to learning our family history.

My dad traces his family back to the 12th Century, which isn't as interesting to me as my mother's American mutt family. I started doing research on that based upon curiosity and orphaned family photos.

Scratch back far enough and I am sure most people have interesting ancestors.

Sorry, but I disagree. The people who are innocently purchasing "family crests" are being deceived that the arms of someone in the past who may or may not have been their relative somehow belong to them. That sure sounds like fraud to me.

Regards,

Todd

**Finn** · 9th June 08, 11:50 AM

Regarding fraud: One thing to consider is that the people who work these booths/kiosks/shops are not genealogists, but minimum wage folks who aren't too different from the kid asking you if you want fries with that. The owners/operators need to know something and be good salespeople. Usually, the worker bees only know how to run the programs on the 'puter.

**Dukeof Kircaldy** · 9th June 08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by cajunscot

Sorry, but I disagree. The people who are innocently purchasing "family crests" are being deceived that the arms of someone in the past who may or may not have been their relative somehow belong to them. That sure sounds like fraud to me.

Regards,

Todd

Can you prove intent to deceive?

Legally fraud is an offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them – usually, to obtain property or services unjustly. If someone is buying a coat of arms, how are they being harmed?

**macwilkin** · 9th June 08, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Dukeof Kircaldy

Can you prove intent to deceive?

Legally fraud is an offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them – usually, to obtain property or services unjustly. If someone is buying a coat of arms, how are they being harmed?

Originally Posted by Finn

Regarding fraud: One thing to consider is that the people who work these booths/kiosks/shops are not genealogists, but minimum wage folks who aren't too different from the kid asking you if you want fries with that. The owners/operators need to know something and be good salespeople. Usually, the worker bees only know how to run the programs on the 'puter.

Ah, I wondered when the "barrack-room lawyers" would come out.

I suppose I should chalk it up to "a fool and his money are soon parted", but I have little sympathy for these businesses. Yes, it may not fit the legal definition of fraud, but to the heraldry community, it is fraud nonetheless, because someone is being duped into buying arms that are not theirs. I suppose it's a bit like the online places selling term papers to students; whilst it may not be illegal in the eyes of the law, but does that really justify it?

Regards,

Todd

**Dukeof Kircaldy** · 9th June 08, 01:19 PM

I am not barrack room lawyer. I have a degree from the University of Exeter and have been admitted to the Bar for nearly 20 years.

Originally Posted by cajunscot

Ah, I wondered when the "barrack-room lawyers" would come out.

I suppose I should chalk it up to "a fool and his money are soon parted", but I have little sympathy for these businesses. Yes, it may not fit the legal definition of fraud, but to the heraldry community, it is fraud nonetheless, because someone is being duped into buying arms that are not theirs. I suppose it's a bit like the online places selling term papers to students; whilst it may not be illegal in the eyes of the law, but does that really justify it?

Regards,

Todd

**macwilkin** · 9th June 08, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Dukeof Kircaldy

I am not barrack room lawyer. I have a degree from the University of Exeter and have been admitted to the Bar for nearly 20 years.

I suppose they don't teach what smileys such as

mean at Exeter.

Apologies for the offence; rest assured I meant none towards your chosen profession.

T.

**O'Neille** · 9th June 08, 01:40 PM

Are the "legitimate sources" any less "commercial". Most of what is required is a "domicile" and a direct male line of descent. Once that is established it's a matter of paying up the money. And by golly, you've just bought yourself a COA. Or for twice the money you can get a new one.

Historically, 1483 is the magic year for the College of Arms. 1318 inception and 1672 official records for the Court of the Lord Lyon. Finally, the Chief Herald of Ireland in Dublin (a division of the National Library) since 1552. You will find many examples of COAs predating these by hundreds of years. I guess you just took your chances before it all became civilized.