Scottish vs. Scots

[Lachlan09]

Did Sir Walter Scott drink Scotch to help with Scottish Block?

Aye he did, but sadly he died of "Old Mortality"

[Paul]

Recent genetic research indicates that the Anglo-Saxon invasions from Germany in the 400's and the Norman invasions around 1066 had only a nominal impact on the ethnic (genetic) makeup of the population of Britain, although they had a vast cultural impact. As these newcomers took on the position of the ruling-class, their language became the official tongue, and their practices of adopting surnames may have become de riguer, but the vast majority of the peasant population would have continued to be of Briton (rather than Germanic) descent. - Much the same thing happened in Central and Southern America - the Spanish Conquestadors brought the Spanish language and culture to Mexico and Latin America, but the population remained primarily that of the Native American tribes who are genetically closer to their Q-Haplotype Asian ancestors than they are to R1b Europeans.

Well most of the evidence actually shows that many, many Britons fled the island of Britain and established the colonies of Gailcia and Brittany - as well as moving to parts of Wales and Cornwall.
My main point was that Britons did not live throughout the island of Britain prior to invasions and after these invasions they were far less than a majority within the island.

[Rob]

Well most of the evidence actually shows that many, many Britons fled the island of Britain and established the colonies of Gailcia and Brittany - as well as moving to parts of Wales and Cornwall.
My main point was that Britons did not live throughout the island of Britain prior to invasions and after these invasions they were far less than a majority within the island.

What evidence? What are your sources?

The overwhelming evidence from studies in population genetics clearly indicate that a large majority of the population of the island of Britain are direct descendents of the people who migrated from Northern Iberia after the last Ice Age (12,000 to 15,000 years ago) and became the Britons. Even in East Anglia (genetically the most Germanic part of England), the descendents of the Britons still constitute a majority (51.2%). The highest percentage of Britons in England is in the Southwest where the Britons form a very large majority (78.2%), which is even higher than in the Scottish Highland region (75.9%) and similar to the percentage in North Wales (78.5%). There is no real evidence for the Britons being driven out of England and the DNA evidence constitutes proof that it never happened.

The Picts of Northern Scotland were genetically Britons from the same Northern Iberian source as the rest of the Britons, and therefore not a separate race.

Sources:-
“Blood of the Isles”, by Professor Bryan Sykes.
“A Y Chromosome Census of the British Isles”, by Capelli et al.
“The Origins of the British”, by Professor Stephen Oppenheimer.

[Lachlan09]

But where does the term Jock originate for Scotsmen and also for American college footballers

[Lachlan09]

But where does the term "Jock" originate for Scotsmen and also for American college footballers ?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

But where does the term "Jock" originate for Scotsmen and also for American college footballers ?

In the USA the rules of American football were set down and codified by a Frenchman named Jaques le Strappe. It took a while for the game to catch on, initially due to a lack of balls, but those who supported it were nicknamed after it's inventor.

[Rex_Tremende]

MacMillan von Münchausen strikes again!

[Lachlan09]

In the USA the rules of American football were set down and codified by a Frenchman named Jaques le Strappe. It took a while for the game to catch on, initially due to a lack of balls, but those who supported it were nicknamed after it's inventor.

Wasn't he also a musician with his own trio, Jacques le Strappe and his Two Swingers ?

[Paul]

What evidence? What are your sources?

The overwhelming evidence from studies in population genetics clearly indicate that a large majority of the population of the island of Britain are direct descendents of the people who migrated from Northern Iberia after the last Ice Age (12,000 to 15,000 years ago) and became the Britons. Even in East Anglia (genetically the most Germanic part of England), the descendents of the Britons still constitute a majority (51.2%). The highest percentage of Britons in England is in the Southwest where the Britons form a very large majority (78.2%), which is even higher than in the Scottish Highland region (75.9%) and similar to the percentage in North Wales (78.5%). There is no real evidence for the Britons being driven out of England and the DNA evidence constitutes proof that it never happened.

The Picts of Northern Scotland were genetically Britons from the same Northern Iberian source as the rest of the Britons, and therefore not a separate race.

Sources:-
“Blood of the Isles”, by Professor Bryan Sykes.
“A Y Chromosome Census of the British Isles”, by Capelli et al.
“The Origins of the British”, by Professor Stephen Oppenheimer.

I read 2 or 3 books on Britons last year including one by C. Snyder. I believe it was simply called "Britons" or "The Britons". You can very much look into your sources and reference them for the sake of a post, though I am not currently writing a journal on the topic and do not have time to dig into such sources.

I can accept "a large majority of the population of the island of Britain are direct descendents of the people who migrated from Northern Iberia after the last Ice Age (12,000 to 15,000 years ago) and became the Britons" but this does not include the majority of Scotland. The Picts had an entirely different Kingdom and remained somewhat united culturally through Roman invasion - very much unlike the Britons (who would only control around 1/4 of the land of modern Scotland). Obviously the Gaels also formed a sector of the genetic make-up of Scotland also, especially in the NW.

The "Scots" are considered as their own ethnic group. Although, the genetic make-up of Scotland is similar to all of Western Europe.
I never claimed the Picts to be a seperate race, they were very obviously a different group of peoples. "Britons" do not form a seperate race from most Celtic groups within Western Europe and therefore Picts may have had very similar genetics to Britons, just as they had similar genetics to those in Spain and Portugal. So the "let's just generalise because this book told me to" argument can be stretched futher, can't it?

[Rob]

I read 2 or 3 books on Britons last year including one by C. Snyder. I believe it was simply called "Britons" or "The Britons". You can very much look into your sources and reference them for the sake of a post, though I am not currently writing a journal on the topic and do not have time to dig into such sources.

Paul,

It is important to realise that Snyder’s book was published in 2003, before the high-resolution analyses of Y-chromosomes and mtDNA carried out by Sykes and Oppenheimer. For instance, although Snyder recognises that the Pictish language belongs to the P-Celtic branch, he states that:-
“The Pictish language developed differently from British, it has been suggested, because the Picts intermingled with the indigenous natives of Scotland and borrowed from their non-Indo-European language.”
This implies that the Picts migrated to what is now Scotland long after an undefined people he refers to as “indigenous natives of Scotland”. The genetic evidence clearly shows that the people we refer to as the Picts were the indigenous natives of Scotland who originally spoke a non-Indo-European language before acquiring a Celtic language. In this respect they were no different from the other indigenous (i.e. post Ice Age) Britons.

I can accept "a large majority of the population of the island of Britain are direct descendents of the people who migrated from Northern Iberia after the last Ice Age (12,000 to 15,000 years ago) and became the Britons" but this does not include the majority of Scotland. The Picts had an entirely different Kingdom and remained somewhat united culturally through Roman invasion - very much unlike the Britons (who would only control around 1/4 of the land of modern Scotland). Obviously the Gaels also formed a sector of the genetic make-up of Scotland also, especially in the NW.

We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. Historians define the term “Britons” as referring to the earliest inhabitants of the Island of Britain, which includes the Picts. The Gaels, who migrated to the region of Britain known by the Romans as Caledonia, were strictly speaking not Britons as they originated from Ireland. Having said that, their ancient ancestors were part of the same post Ice Age migration from Northern Iberia as the ancestors of the Britons, and had the same basic genetic signature as the Britons (including the Picts).

I agree that the Picts had their own kingdom (or as Snyder puts it, “tribal confederation”), but so did many other Britons throughout the Island of Britain, e.g. Trinovantes, Iceni, Dumnonii, Cornovii, etc. There is no evidence that the Romans put an end to such tribal confederations in occupied Britain. In fact some of the ‘kingdoms’, such as the Dumnonii came under very little Roman influence, apart from trade (the Roman legions only occupied the Dumnonian capital of Isca Dumnoniorum for a few years).

The "Scots" are considered as their own ethnic group. Although, the genetic make-up of Scotland is similar to all of Western Europe.

I never claimed the Picts to be a seperate race, they were very obviously a different group of peoples. "Britons" do not form a seperate race from most Celtic groups within Western Europe and therefore Picts may have had very similar genetics to Britons, just as they had similar genetics to those in Spain and Portugal.

It is not strictly correct to say that the genetic make-up of Scotland (or of the rest of Britain for that matter) is similar to all of Western Europe. Admittedly the primary constituent DNA haplogroups are the same throughout Western Europe, but the constituent percentages of these haplogroups are significantly different in most of Britain from the constituent percentages in North West Europe, where large-scale later migrations from geographical sources other than Northern Iberia occurred.