"N. Finchley clothing company to unveil first ever English kilt on St George's Day"

[Chas]

I don't like this at all. It smacks of utter silliness to me. I'm sorry, but I don't think putting a flag on a "kilt" and adding some pretty heraldry on the pleats is at all eye-pleasing. Would anyone ever wear pants like this? It's completely juvenile and makes no sense to me whatsoever.

But they are exactly the same, James. What does a flag represent? What does a tartan represent? How are they not representing the same thing?

Men wear tartan trews. More to the point, the Highland Regiments have been doing it for generations - do you think they are juvenile?

I have no wish to be argumentative, but I just don't see your reasoning.

Regards

Chas

[davidlpope]

But they are exactly the same, James. What does a flag represent? What does a tartan represent? How are they not representing the same thing?

Chas

I'm not sure that I agree with your reasoning. A flag represents a country. Tartans may represent specific things, and in that way be symbolic, but Tartan, generically, represents the Highland culture of Scotland. Even new tartans that are not Scottish in origin (English county, U.S. states, Canadian provinces, organizations, businesses, etc.) are ingrafting themselves in the existing Highland/Pan-Scottish tradition.

By my way of reckoning, though, the two "symbols" really clash when combined in this particular fashion, i.e. a traditionally constructed kilt = a symbol of Scotland, the St. George's cross = a symbol of England.

To me it still comes back to the fact that one cultural/national/ethinic group is appropriating a clear symbol of another cultural/national/ethnic group instead of using a distinct and unique facet of their own culture to represent their identity. Not criminal, but just a little sad, in my personal view.

It would be as if one made up a set of lederhosen in blue and white with a saltire across the rear-end and declared it was a "'revolutionary' style of dress" symbolizing Scottish identity. To me that sort of thing says "confused", not "Scotland". Likewise with this kilt.


Cordially,

David

[Semiomniscient]

But they are exactly the same, James. What does a flag represent? What does a tartan represent? How are they not representing the same thing?

Men wear tartan trews. More to the point, the Highland Regiments have been doing it for generations - do you think they are juvenile?

I have no wish to be argumentative, but I just don't see your reasoning.

Regards

Chas

No, tartan was not originated to be a flag and symbol. It has come to mean something akin to that for certain clans, but it is definitive that tartan began with the purpose to clothe.
I have no problem with "loud" and bright and ostentatious tartans. But this is chinsy and trite. (It's nothing to do with it being English either)--and I might as well mention that I dislike immensely any sort of pattern like this on kilts, be they saltires, lion rampants, etc. However, I can at least give those credit on being a bit more understated.

Heraldry indeed had and sometimes still has a place in clothing, but not on kilts and tasteful clothing. For what it's worth, I don't like American flag print on clothing either, except for on t-shirts and embroidered on a golf or polo shirt.

This thing doesn't do anything to further the kilt, and it certainly smacks the face of Scottish culture--which I am commited to promoting. I believe it diminishes the reputation of the kilt, as do some other modernized and trite or "novelty" kilts do.

And Chas, I am never going to take a disagreeing point-of-view personally. I believe argument is a delightful and productive thing if done in the proper spirit. :-)

[fluter]

Would anyone ever wear pants like this?

Don't they have golf courses where you live? Drop us a line next time you're in the neighborhood, and we'll introduce the concept of ... Myrtle Beach.

Otherwise, I think we are in accord; except that I'd love to see Hamish and English Bloke wear them. We'd probably have to pull a dual Caledonia, just to keep up.

[Monkey@Arms]

I agree with the posters who say the kilt under discussion looks like something for a knight in armor. This, by far, is my favorite novelty kilt:





Best regards,

Jake

[chasem]

I agree with the posters who say the kilt under discussion looks like something for a knight in armor. This, by far, is my favorite novelty kilt:

I like the look of that one, probably because it's much more subdued. But I still wouldn't wear it.

[Woot22]

Speaking as an American myself, I am finding this thread odd that it seems to be my own countrymen the most "offended" by this kilt. Not exactly sure why that is really. For my own part, as I have already stated, I think it's kind of cool. I hope we are all not buying into the Scots versus English bit, which is way overstated on this side of the pond. When I was visiting there it seemed to be more good-natured ribbing then outright dislike between the two.

[Chas]

I'm not sure that I agree with your reasoning. A flag represents a country. Tartans may represent specific things, and in that way be symbolic, but Tartan, generically, represents the Highland culture of Scotland. Even new tartans that are not Scottish in origin (English county, U.S. states, Canadian provinces, organizations, businesses, etc.) are ingrafting themselves in the existing Highland/Pan-Scottish tradition.

By my way of reckoning, though, the two "symbols" really clash when combined in this particular fashion, i.e. a traditionally constructed kilt = a symbol of Scotland, the St. George's cross = a symbol of England.

To me it still comes back to the fact that one cultural/national/ethinic group is appropriating a clear symbol of another cultural/national/ethnic group instead of using a distinct and unique facet of their own culture to represent their identity. Not criminal, but just a little sad, in my personal view.

It would be as if one made up a set of lederhosen in blue and white with a saltire across the rear-end and declared it was a "'revolutionary' style of dress" symbolizing Scottish identity. To me that sort of thing says "confused", not "Scotland". Likewise with this kilt.


Cordially,

David

So we are back to the same thing. If it isn't a woven twill fabric or is a 'Contemporary' kilt, it isn't a kilt.

Oh, and we use three different nation's national symbols on our national flag. We don't have a problem with it.

No, tartan was not originated to be a flag and symbol. It has come to mean something akin to that for certain clans, but it is definitive that tartan began with the purpose to clothe.
I have no problem with "loud" and bright and ostentatious tartans. But this is chinsy and trite. (It's nothing to do with it being English either)--and I might as well mention that I dislike immensely any sort of pattern like this on kilts, be they saltires, lion rampants, etc. However, I can at least give those credit on being a bit more understated.

Heraldry indeed had and sometimes still has a place in clothing, but not on kilts and tasteful clothing. For what it's worth, I don't like American flag print on clothing either, except for on t-shirts and embroidered on a golf or polo shirt.

This thing doesn't do anything to further the kilt, and it certainly smacks the face of Scottish culture--which I am commited to promoting. I believe it diminishes the reputation of the kilt, as do some other modernized and trite or "novelty" kilts do.

And Chas, I am never going to take a disagreeing point-of-view personally. I believe argument is a delightful and productive thing if done in the proper spirit. :-)

If we accept that the kilt is not only for Scotsmen, born, bred and living in Scotland, but is for all men who choose to wear it. Then we must also accept that they will also put their own spin on it. That is how we get denim, cotton, linen, canvas, PV kilts. The kilt has evolved and will continue to do so, whether we like it or not. This is one of the evolutions. Personally, I see nothing wrong with a national flag woven into a kilt. If the weaver can weave it and a kilt maker can pleat it, then it is and should be just as acceptable as a Black Watch, pleated to the stripe. Anything that does not evolve, dies. That is why we don't run around naked with each buttock painted in a different shade of wode.

Speaking as an American myself, I am finding this thread odd that it seems to be my own countrymen the most "offended" by this kilt. Not exactly sure why that is really. For my own part, as I have already stated, I think it's kind of cool. I hope we are all not buying into the Scots versus English bit, which is way overstated on this side of the pond. When I was visiting there it seemed to be more good-natured ribbing then outright dislike between the two.

Wise words - Thank you.

Regards

Chas

[Monkey@Arms]

That is why we don't run around naked with each buttock painted in a different shade of wode.

Chas

Clearly spoken by a man who hasn't been to Burning Man.

Best regards,

Jake

[BoldHighlander]

Speaking as an American myself, I am finding this thread odd that it seems to be my own countrymen the most "offended" by this kilt. Not exactly sure why that is really. For my own part, as I have already stated, I think it's kind of cool. I hope we are all not buying into the Scots versus English bit, which is way overstated on this side of the pond. When I was visiting there it seemed to be more good-natured ribbing then outright dislike between the two.

Nope....sorry, I'm not offended by any alleged hijacking of the kilt, or 'Scots -vs- English bit' (nor could I really care less about any of that).

I can't speak for any of my fellow Americans (nor would I dare try to do so), but I don't really care for it because it just doesn't do anything for me personally