Civilian Mess Jackets

[Cygnus]

Thanks, Cygnus, x 2.

I was wondering how a cummerbund might go with a kilt. I like the thought of a red bowtie.

I have no idea how a dirk belt looks. Since I won't wear even a sgian dubh, however, I don't see myself ever having use of a dirk.

You'll generally find "dirk belts" simply referred to as "kilt belts" these days. They're just the the wide, black-leather belts with formal buckles that you see in every Scottish clothing shop. While you can wear a dirk with one of these belts, it is entirely optional.

And I am biased against cummerbunds for two reasons:

1. Because the front of the kilt has two aprons, it is very thick - which can lead to there being a very well-defined "step" in your cummerbund.

2. Most cummerbunds have narrow straps (often elastic) and buckle in the back. Wearing such a cummerbund with no jacket just seems sloppy to me.

To each his own, I suppose.

[Galician]

As many have posted in other threads lately that they find themselves logging in or participating in XMTS threads less recently due to a variety of reasons...I sometimes feel the same way. But then threads like this come along and I learn something that I didn't know...and it's refreshing.

I consider myself fairly well versed in the levels of attire and etiquette, Saxon, military, and now Highland as well...but never have I heard of Red Sea Rig. Thank you all for exposing me to another little bit of knowledge. I'm not opposed to the look, but have to say that I'm with MacLL on the opinion side. I think it's a perfectly acceptable manner of dress when it's named as the dress code for an event. However, if you are attending a civilian black tie affair where everybody else is wearing traditional black tie (ie. with jacket)...you'll look under-dressed (best case) or like a waiter (worst case).

But about when one is going out to a public event where there is no dress code?

Getting back to the subject of the thread...mess jackets...I love the look. I'll admit to being very tempted to wear my uniform mess jacket with a kilt, but have thus far resisted out of respect for uniform regulations and not mixing US military and Highland attire in civilian wear. Regarding the white mess jacket...I think it carries with it a similar stigma to the white shirt/cummerbund/bow tie combination (I haven't used RSR here on purpose...we can call it RSR in it's designated place, but when it's not the designated uniform it's just poor form or a service uniform) in that it may conjure up images of waiters or cruise ship attendants (Love Boat, anyone?) I have been tempted to buy the white mess uniform...it's relatively inexpensive...but the problem is that nobody in the U.S. Army wears it...so if I wore it to a summertime function (which are also rare...most balls tend to be during the Christmas holiday season or in the spring),

I'm not clear about when this style of jacket is appropriate.

I'd be the only white jacket in a sea of blue and black.

and the problem is....?

[Cygnus]

...
Regarding the white mess jacket...I think it carries with it a similar stigma to the white shirt/cummerbund/bow tie combination (I haven't used RSR here on purpose...we can call it RSR in it's designated place, but when it's not the designated uniform it's just poor form or a service uniform) in that it may conjure up images of waiters or cruise ship attendants (Love Boat, anyone?) I have been tempted to buy the white mess uniform...it's relatively inexpensive...but the problem is that nobody in the U.S. Army wears it...so if I wore it to a summertime function (which are also rare...most balls tend to be during the Christmas holiday season or in the spring), I'd be the only white jacket in a sea of blue and black.

I agree that a white mess jacket is somewhat stigmatized, though not to the degree of showing up sans jacket!

I don't mind standing out in a crowd, which is why the white jacket is somewhat tempting. They're not common around here, but they're also not unheard of. And with the sun beating down until 21:00 at the peak of summer, it would be nice for the rare evening event (but only between Memorial Day and Labor Day ).

[Galician]

Oh, thanks, Cygnus! You have made my special day so much easier to dress for. Much appreciated. I like style, but I find comfort an essestial too.

[macwilkin]

Note to self:...never bring up Red Sea Rig on Xmarks ever again.

T.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Okay, just a couple of points concerning the kilt and hot, sticky, weather:

The clan Campbell RSR seems to totally the opinion/invention of a member of that clan. The military was quite clear that RSR was trews, cummerbund, white shirt, black bow tie.

Worn with any sort of formal attire, a red bow tie is very infra dig.

Cummerbunds aren't worn with a kilt. When worn with trews they should be black, or the same colour as the body of the jacket. Without the jacket (shudder) then black. Also, and this is important, a proper cummerbund is about 4 1/2 inches wide and goes completely around one's tummy; the pleated bit of satin with an elastic band across the back is designed to be worn with a jacket, never with the jacket removed.

Linen and light weight cotton. If it's hot, this is the way to go. Also the US forces wear a white mess jacket in the summer, and these can be found on ebay for a couple of bucks, or purchased new on line from Marlow-White for a lot more bucks. Finally, most Southern tux rental shops can kit you out in a white mess/spencer jacket this time of year.

So, rather than refer to RSR, allow me to suggest a new form of formal attire: SSR; Sweltering Summer Rig.

[Cygnus]

Okay, just a couple of points concerning the kilt and hot, sticky, weather:

The clan Campbell RSR seems to totally the opinion/invention of a member of that clan. The military was quite clear that RSR was trews, cummerbund, white shirt, black bow tie.

Worn with any sort of formal attire, a red bow tie is very infra dig.

Cummerbunds aren't worn with a kilt. When worn with trews they should be black, or the same colour as the body of the jacket. Without the jacket (shudder) then black. Also, and this is important, a proper cummerbund is about 4 1/2 inches wide and goes completely around one's tummy; the pleated bit of satin with an elastic band across the back is designed to be worn with a jacket, never with the jacket removed.

Linen and light weight cotton. If it's hot, this is the way to go. Also the US forces wear a white mess jacket in the summer, and these can be found on ebay for a couple of bucks, or purchased new on line from Marlow-White for a lot more bucks. Finally, most Southern tux rental shops can kit you out in a white mess/spencer jacket this time of year.

So, rather than refer to RSR, allow me to suggest a new form of formal attire: SSR; Sweltering Summer Rig.

I can get behind the SSR movement; though you might want to let the Australian armed forces know that bit about not wearing cummerbunds with kilts!

I'm not as opposed to a red bow tie as MacMillan of Rathdown, but I really only see it being worn with RSR (and have worn one as such during my days of playing in band).

And as long as we're on the subject, I've always been under the impression that a cummerbund is worn with the pleats pointing up, though it appears the US military's regulations are for downward-pointing pleats.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

When temperatures rise but the kilt is still the preferred form of dress, here's the best formal option:

White mess jacket;
Dress shirt, folded collar, french cuffs;
Black, white, or gold studs, cufflinks to match;
Black, self tie, bow tie;
White open back three button formal waistcoat with white or pearl buttons;
Black open back three button formal waistcoat with black buttons (or may match those on the jacket);
Black kilt belt with silver belt plate (worn in lieu of waistcoat);
Kilt;
Dress sporran;
Dress sgian dubh (optional);
Dress hose (not white, cream, or ecru);
Flashes, to taste;
Dress shoes, black, highly polished.

Just the thing for those sweltering Savanna nights.

[longhuntr74]

http://usafflagranks.com/unknown_brigadier_general.html

I happened to be watching They Were Expendable this weekend, and noted a US Army officer in a white tropical uniform at the dance in the beginning of the film. I'm fairly certain I've seen a photo of "Dugout Doug" wearing one in the Islands (Philippines) as well.

Just some interesting "flotsam and jetsam" regarding US military uniforms of "days of yore".

T.

Todd,
The US Army just "discontinued" the service whites (the uniform on that link) from the inventory about 3 years ago in the same change message where they published the the transition guidance from the green Class A uniform to the new ASU (essentially a modified version of the old dress blue uniform). Until that time we had a white uniform that was cut nearly identical to the green uniform...but nobody wore it, which is probably why they got rid of it.

The did, however, keep the white mess uniform and evening mess uniform as an authorized evening uniform (probably for senior level officers who attend summertime joint service dining functions where many personnel from other services may be wearing a white uniform). It's a sharp uniform and only costs about $350 for the jacket and pants. Jacket is a white mess jacket cut exactly the same as the blue mess jacket but with same colored lapels (instead of the traditional branch colored satin). Pants are high-waisted black flat-front tux pants with a black satin stripe down the outseam. The differentiation between the mess and evening mess are black tie, pleated shirt, cummerbund vs. white tie, stiff front shirt, and white waistcoat.

But about when one is going out to a public event where there is no dress code?

I'm not clear about when this style of jacket is appropriate.

and the problem is....?

When it is not dress code...social norms apply. Again, if everybody is going to be wearing tux jackets and black tie...attempting to wear RSR (an inherently MILITARY style of dress...or rather semi-dress) will have you as the odd man out...and not in a good way. I agree there's nothing wrong with standing out due to style and class...but to be under-dressed is not desirable IMHO.

Mess jackets...when are they appropriate? Only for dressy black tie or white tie occasions. For Highland attire, I'd say they would be appropriate at any event that you would properly wear a PC, Regulation Doublet, and even some of the more formal doublets if you paired the jacket with white tie, stiff shirt, and pique waistcoat.

I'd go so far as to say that a mess jacket (or a PC or doublet) would be out of place at a black tie private affair at a friend's house...in which case a dinner jacket (saxon) or Argyll jacket (highland) would be called for.

I agree that a white mess jacket is somewhat stigmatized, though not to the degree of showing up sans jacket!

I don't mind standing out in a crowd, which is why the white jacket is somewhat tempting. They're not common around here, but they're also not unheard of. And with the sun beating down until 21:00 at the peak of summer, it would be nice for the rare evening event (but only between Memorial Day and Labor Day ).

If you see a white jacket in the civilian world, most of the time it will be a white dinner jacket. Very classy. Anybody ever seen a white mess jacket outside of military uniforms, ship crew uniforms, or wait staff?

[macwilkin]

Okay, just a couple of points concerning the kilt and hot, sticky, weather:

The clan Campbell RSR seems to totally the opinion/invention of a member of that clan. The military was quite clear that RSR was trews, cummerbund, white shirt, black bow tie.

Worn with any sort of formal attire, a red bow tie is very infra dig.

Cummerbunds aren't worn with a kilt. When worn with trews they should be black, or the same colour as the body of the jacket. Without the jacket (shudder) then black. Also, and this is important, a proper cummerbund is about 4 1/2 inches wide and goes completely around one's tummy; the pleated bit of satin with an elastic band across the back is designed to be worn with a jacket, never with the jacket removed.

Linen and light weight cotton. If it's hot, this is the way to go. Also the US forces wear a white mess jacket in the summer, and these can be found on ebay for a couple of bucks, or purchased new on line from Marlow-White for a lot more bucks. Finally, most Southern tux rental shops can kit you out in a white mess/spencer jacket this time of year.

So, rather than refer to RSR, allow me to suggest a new form of formal attire: SSR; Sweltering Summer Rig.

Scott,

I don't see any reference in the aforementioned article from the CCSNA to the Highland variant of RSR using a kilt:

"Tartan trews are worn with an evening long sleeved shirt and black bow tie."

T.