Identity in the Scottish Diaspora

[neloon]

Alan, Rule 5 is there because the forum knows, from vast experience, that to permit discussion of politics and/or religion when our focus is on kilts, is to court disaster. The 'genealogy' sub-set of the forum is to allow those whose ancestry is Scottish to discuss how that affects their thinking.

Isn't that exactly the point I'm making? You don't find "rule 5s" on UK fora - they're not necessary.

Alan

[ThistleDown]

You are referring to thick vs. thin skins. Yes, I agree. You must agree, too, that XMarks' threads are very polite perhaps due to Rule 5 and others. Maybe a bit wimpy, but definitely polite.

[davidlpope]

David,
It seems to me that, if someone in the US says "I am French" that is not to be taken as it would be in other countries. Comprenez vous? (I could understand it in Canada because of the strong French cultural presence.) Or does some kind of context tell you what "I am French" means.

Alan

Alan,

Thanks for your post, and I think that the light has just come on!

In the part of the US that I live in, I almost never encounter individuals who are from other countries, except for migrant farm workers who are from Central and South America. So, it's always context that tells us that the people who are talking to me are Americans. If there's any doubt, it's clear from their accents. Even when their accent marks them out as different, it indicates that they are from New Jersey or the Midwest. So, when the statement "I'm Scottish/German/Greek" is made, it's clear that the person isn't a native of Scotland, Germany, or Greece.

When I was growing up, one of my brother's friend's mom was "from Scotland". It was always said that way. And it meant exactly what was said. She was actually "from Scotland". She had been born and grew up there, had met this friend's father while he was in the US military and stationed in Scotland, had married him, moved to NC and become a US citizen.

My wife and I have close friends who live in Greensboro who are "from New Zealand" in the same way. But they very strongly identify as American citizens who are "from New Zealand" but "are [of] Scottish [descent]".

I think this must be a very different reality than that in Scotland.

[neloon]

You are referring to thick vs. thin skins. Yes, I agree. You must agree, too, that XMarks' threads are very polite perhaps due to Rule 5 and others. Maybe a bit wimpy, but definitely polite.

Agreed
But I do think that we sometimes get into contortions trying to avoid rule #5 contraventions and that obfuscation itself causes misunderstandings Anyway, we are getting off-topic which is also a sin

Alan

[davidlpope]

As I have pointed out just recently David, maybe in this thread or the one that was closed down just before you restarted the conversation here, that I have Russian, Australian, French, English, German ancestry floating about in my genes. I am not a Russian-Scot or anything else-Scot. I am a Scot. I am not unusual in Scotland. Do I wander about with a string of onions round my neck, to celebrate my French Genes? NO. Do I wander about the place playing the didgeridoo with a boomerang tucked into my belt? No. That does not mean that I wish to forget my ancestors, far from it, but that is my families business, no one else's.

We all come from somewhere, as some one has pointed out here and the Scots are no different. If I could use you as an example, I have no idea where your ancestors hail from really and whilst these things matter to you, they matter not one bit to me. As far as I am concerned-----and most of Scotland I venture to suggest-------you are an American.

We don't care that you are a young country-----older than many-----you are a population made up from immigrants from all walks of life, from all around the world----and?----- you are from a huge country, both in landmass and population-------we know all that, we don't need telling!That is just a load of fact nothing more and from a Scots point of view, so what? All that matters to us is that you are American. Should we meet up one day I would not dream of wanting to know anything about your ancestry and I would not expect to discuss my ancestors with you either. You are an American, I am a Scot what else needs to be said?

Jock,

Thanks for your post. I think the thing that you're missing is this:

1. There is a small subset of Americans who pursue their ancestry/genealogy/family history as a hobby. This hobby matters to them in the same way that fishing matters to dyed in the wool anglers. They talk about their hobby with others who are interested in the same hobby.

2. Within that small subset are those people whose ancestry is at least part Scottish. This interest in their ancestry usually carries over into an interest in the culture and traditions of the original countries of their ancestors. For guys whose ancestors are Scottish, this often leads to an interest in kilt-wearing.

3. When those guys start looking for information on how to get/wear a kilt they come to XMarks.

4. That's why so many people here (virtually surrounded by others with the same hobby) incessantly talk about their Scottish ancestry.

If we ran into each other in Scotland, perhaps the subject would come up. It wouldn't come up because you have an interest in my ancestry or because I think that other people need to know all about my family's background. It would come up because, simply, it would be the reason that I am in Scotland for a visit- my motivation to visit Scotland is based on my ancestral connection to that country. Same with England, Wales, and Northern Ireland. I want to better understand the stories of my ancestors before they were Americans.

[davidlpope]

The OP asked why those who describe themselves thus believe it to be necessary; in other words, isn't 'American' sufficient?

That's exactly my point. "American" isn't sufficient if one is referring to culture or identity. America is too big, young, and heterogenous for "American" to be useful in describing culture or identity.

I recognize that my prior metaphor (Europe/Scotland) was limited. But I still think that the metaphor still has value. My point was that "European", while an accurate descriptor of someone living in Germany, isn't as helpful as "German" when trying to provide information about culture and identity.

[davidlpope]

Agreed
But I do think that we sometimes get into contortions trying to avoid rule #5 contraventions and that obfuscation itself causes misunderstandings Anyway, we are getting off-topic which is also a sin

Alan

Alan,

I really do want to understand your view and recognize that Rule #5 is hampering you. I'm thick-skinned. Would you be willing to PM me with your full view? In that environment you won't be hampered by Rule #5.

David

[neloon]

David,
I'm not sure the reality is all that different. To give you two examples
Our neighbour had a Polish father and an Italian mother (that sort of thing happened in WW2). His first and last name would leave you in no doubt about his paternal descent but (barring difficulties with postmen and such) it is of no relevance. I know how he voted in the Scottish referendum but, of course, to say anything more would not be allowed here. His son-in-law is Middle-eastern - I can't be more accurate than that - and his grand-daughter goes to one of the Gaelic schools in Glasgow and hence is a fluent Gaelic speaker.
Example 2. One of my daughter's university friends has very Scottish first and last names. Suddenly "We need someone who speaks Spanish" (Not a common accomplishment in the UK.) "Oh, I speak Spanish - my Mother's Spanish." Problem solved but nobody would have known otherwise. If you look very hard you can just see a touch of Latin beauty but otherwise she's just a lovely Scots ceilidh-going lass.
We just don't seem to be bothered about ancestors.

Alan

[Jock Scot]

We all have a hobby David, but we are taught at an early age not to be a bore. In other words, whilst I might be interested in stamp collecting I should not expect others to even know what it is! I kid you not, I probably hear at least once a week (whilst I am in Scotland and I grant you that the Fort William area is a major tourist centre) the dreaded "tartan justification lecture" in one form or another and I am not a regular visitor to town either. Why in heavens name should the locals be expected to listen to it? Courtesy from the locals usually prevails, but my word patience is tested more than somewhat!

If only the conversation could go "Hello I am Wayne from America, could you tell me what that statue is?" "Hello there I am Jock,that is the Commando Monument. Are you having a good holiday?" I am not interested in your culture or your ancestors or why you are visiting. You are an American on holiday is more than enough. A very light weight conversation, would do us nicely!

[neloon]

Alan,

I really do want to understand your view and recognize that Rule #5 is hampering you. I'm thick-skinned. Would you be willing to PM me with your full view? In that environment you won't be hampered by Rule #5.

David

Does rule #6 not prevent that? I will try to think of something cryptic to say publicly. But it would only be my view anyway and not that of other Scots.

Alan