Is it OK for just anybody to kilt up?

**Luke MacGillie** · 14th November 20, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Father Bill

Perhaps you would all let me set the cat amongst the pigeons for a moment.

Although I roll my eyes when I hear Christmas music being played at this early time of year, one recording on the cable raised a question which is maybe pertinent to the current discussion. I heard "Silent Night" being played rather beautifully.

Now, Stille nacht, Heilige nacht clearly did not originate here in Canada, nor was it written as "Silent Night" in English. It was written in German, in Germany.

So... is it cultural appropriation for us to sing or play it here, and even to have provided it with English lyrics? I'm wondering what would be the opinion of those who claim cultural appropriation with regards to the kilt which is, of course, the topic of discussion here. I am less interested in the opinion of those who do not believe that cultural appropriation exists since we know what they would say as a matter of principle.

The problem, IMO, is that all the Western European cultures have been lumped in together.

"White" girls cant take drugs and dance at Coachella wearing a Quasi Plains Indian feathered headdress anymore, because its disrespectful to a historically downtrodden culture. I think the same sort of thing should apply to the kilt and other pieces, parts and whole ensembles of ethnic dress.

As to Silent Night, it is a song that has to do with the events in a non traditional Celtic/Pict faith that seems to have over run our traditional practices, almost to the point of extinction. But there may be some carve out because of the Elector's of Hanover who have ruled in London the last couple centuries?

But I do hope you have a Merry Christmas, It is obviously an important day in your life. I truly mean that.

**Jock Scot** · 14th November 20, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Father Bill

Perhaps you would all let me set the cat amongst the pigeons for a moment.

Although I roll my eyes when I hear Christmas music being played at this early time of year, one recording on the cable raised a question which is maybe pertinent to the current discussion. I heard "Silent Night" being played rather beautifully.

Now, Stille nacht, Heilige nacht clearly did not originate here in Canada, nor was it written as "Silent Night" in English. It was written in German, in Germany.

So... is it cultural appropriation for us to sing or play it here, and even to have provided it with English lyrics? I'm wondering what would be the opinion of those who claim cultural appropriation with regards to the kilt which is, of course, the topic of discussion here. I am less interested in the opinion of those who do not believe that cultural appropriation exists since we know what they would say as a matter of principle.

I care little about religion and care even less which language is being used, but History tells me that religion has and still does cause division and upset the world over, whatever language is used, which is why we don’t talk about it here on this website, but “Silent Night” is a very nice tune.

**Liam** · 14th November 20, 10:26 PM

Before any additional references to religion are mentioned please refer to Forum rule 5
Cheers

**aech2oh** · 14th November 20, 10:32 PM

My opinion on cultural appropriation is that it has to be respectful from the perspective of the people whose culture whatever you're doing originates from. Obviously individual attitudes are going to vary, but I think it's a good rule of thumb, as it mandates being informed about how culturally significant it is. So for this context, wearing a kilt is something Celts traditionally do, but the kilt itself doesn't have much meaning, unlike how a Native American headdress is usually something earned.

**Steelkilt** · 15th November 20, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Luke MacGillie

If you want to be free of the confines of "pants" while on stage, why not the Phish dress, or a black leather minskirt? If those are outrageous suggestions to you, then yes you are most likely engaging in cultural appropriation, and not just wanting "Freedom"

For me, the answer is that the kilt is an article of clothing traditionally worn by men, while the dress and mini-skirt are traditionally female attire (traditional is stretching the word for mini-skirts, I’ll admit). I don’t wish to dress like a woman.

I wear the kilt, and appreciate the culture from which it sprang.

**OC Richard** · 15th November 20, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Father Bill

Stille nacht, Heilige nacht was written in German, in Germany.

So is it cultural appropriation for us to sing or play it here, and even to have provided it with English lyrics?

Only Germans can be the judge of that. I wonder what a German might feel hearing non-German speakers sing Stille Nacht with bad pronunciation, or hear the original words cut out altogether and replaced by words in some other language. They might think it's cool, or feel a twinge of their language and culture being appropriated, or might not feel anything at all.

To flip it around, what if a Canadian heard Germans singing Oh Canada, the words having been replaced by some German text? Or somebody from the USA hearing Born In The USA or The Star-Spangled Banner being sung with German lyrics?

I know that if I heard a New York group singing Take Me Home Country Roads with new lyrics about how great New York is, I would feel appropriated.

I'm not saying that people would get bent out of shape, just that they might feel a twinge of having had their culture appropriated by outsiders.

**Jock Scot** · 16th November 20, 03:02 AM

I have met several visiting Xmarkers in Scotland and have enjoyed every meeting that I have had with them. Most were wearing the kilt, as I was mostly and I don't think that we discussed the kilt, or tartan, or entitlement at all. Perhaps my memory fails me, but there was certainly no long drawn out detailed discussion about kilt matters like we have on this website. That is how it should be as frankly there are more interesting subjects to chat about! I do well remember though when I started meeting them, fretting over the "what if?" or "do you think?" should the questions be asked.

Thankfully thus far, I have never had that discussion and I hope that should the occasion arise that I have a suitably courteous and diplomatic reply to hand, whilst also making my position clear. In all honesty I do find some attitudes about tartans and the kilt on this website difficult to comprehend and sometimes distasteful, as no doubt others find my views difficult too and perhaps its easier to discuss these things politely and more openly over the internet. Discussions here can still go wrong on occasion though. When all said and done its hardly a matter that we are going to go to war over! But ......BUT.......it really does help us all to know what is "on the other side of the coin" even if we don't like what we see.

**MichiganKyle** · 16th November 20, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

I have met several visiting Xmarkers in Scotland and have enjoyed every meeting that I have had with them. Most were wearing the kilt, as I was mostly and I don't think that we discussed the kilt, or tartan, or entitlement at all. Perhaps my memory fails me, but there was certainly no long drawn out detailed discussion about kilt matters like we have on this website. That is how it should be as frankly there are more interesting subjects to chat about! I do well remember though when I started meeting them, fretting over the "what if?" or "do you think?" should the questions be asked.

Thankfully thus far, I have never had that discussion and I hope that should the occasion arise that I have a suitably courteous and diplomatic reply to hand, whilst also making my position clear. In all honesty I do find some attitudes about tartans and the kilt on this website difficult to comprehend and sometimes distasteful, as no doubt others find my views difficult too and perhaps its easier to discuss these things politely and more openly over the internet. Discussions here can still go wrong on occasion though. When all said and done its hardly a matter that we are going to go to war over! But ......BUT.......it really does help us all to know what is "on the other side of the coin" even if we don't like what we see.

Well said.