Can We?

[Magnus Sporrano]

The kilt has historically been a practical garment, and if one is going to wear it everyday in all sorts of conditions and for all sorts of tasks, it makes sense to have a knock-around kind of kilt for times when it's appropriate.

Amen. I have three PV kilts now, and I will do anything in them that I would do in business casual clothes and a few things that I wouldn't do in business casual clothes (like hiking in the woods). OK if I'm working on the car, I put on the blue jeans because (1)modesty and (2)I don't feel bad about wrecking a pair of levis. But when I finally save up the $$ to commission a traditional wool kilt, I'll never wear it anyplace that I feel it is likely to get snagged or stained. It's not for pubbing, not for hiking, no way. At that price it's not practical for day to day use. I can wear it to the office from time to time so it will get more use than a suit but far less than a PV kilt.

But I don't see that as a cheapie imitation of a kilt, only a different kind of traditional kilt -- one made with a bit less fabric.

How about the Traditional USA Kilts that are made with the full amount of fabric, cut like a wool kilt, but just made out of PV?

I agree that those who respect tradition will respect the traditional kilt. But will they be able to have one if the traditional kiltmakers go out of business?

I don't think that will happen.

Look at how the members of this board progress. Many will start out with a cheap Pakistani kilt. Then they see what else is out there and move up to a PV kilt from one of the well known kilt makers. They might get a few more PV kilts and then graduate to wool. I don't think anyone denies that the wool traditional kilt has its place at the head of the table. There will always be a place for the kilt makers who are better known for the quality of their wool kilts.

We live in an age in which huge manufacturers and retailers dictate what we should wear, and most of it is of mediocre or poor quality, made offshore in places where workers are paid little for their labour.

Obviously this forum would not exist if that were universally true.

If the kilt does catch on with the masses, it will be a fad. Like parachute pants. It will come and go. The upside to that is we will have been ahead of the curve. The downside is when the fad fades away we may be in worse shape in the public eye.

But if Wal-Mart and their suppliers, for example, got into the casual kilt business, it might very well spell your demise.

The only way Walmart would be selling kilts is if they got those cheap import kilts and could retail them for under $50. That probably nips at the lower end offerings of the kilt makers here. But maybe it serves like a gateway drug.

You can buy a men's suit for about $100 if you wait for a good sale. But a well tailored $500 suit looks and wears so much better. The $100 suit didn't make those $500 suits go away. They just put suits within the reach of more people who otherwise wouldn't own one.

[Declan Rowan]

I agree with Magnus. As I have yet to earn any serious money in this lifetime, I have to make my kilt purchases carefully. Yet in the last 5 years I have worked my way up, trading some of the old ones to my friends so I can buy better ones, until I now have 3 tartan kilts I am proud of. And ironically enough, it is my PV Bear Kilt that I get the most compliments on, not my wool ones.

I know we talk alot about the different materials, and how they hold the pleats, or the way they hang, but quite frankly, how many people outside of this forum know enough about PV vs Wool vs Wool/Acrylic? I've had people say "wow, I love the feel of wool" when I'm wearing my PV, so that should tell you something.

So if the choice was to go kiltless and save for a traditional that I would only wear for formal event, or to buy one I can wear in the woods and in the pubs, I have to go with the second. One day, when I have more money than I know what to do with, I will probably buy an expensive traditional kilt. (Or perhaps for whenever I get married... equal rights means I get to spend as much for my kilt as she gets for a wedding dress, right? )

[Scotus]

Wool kilts are not just for formal occasions. They can and are worn everywhere (including hiking and in pups). Our Highland ancestors, who wore wool kilts everywhere, seldom (if ever) had "formal" occasions to go to! Perhaps some of the chiefs living in London in the 19th century wore them this way... but... most Highlanders weren't living in London or Edinburgh... They were actually very poor, but they knew that wool lasts forever.

[macwilkin]

They were actually very poor, but they knew that wool lasts forever.

Quite right...it's no wonder that military uniforms were made of wool for hundreds of years. Wool is a very "tough" material, and also "breathes" in warm weather, as well as insulating from the cold and wet.
I gained a hearty respect & appreciation for wool in 10 years of Civil War reenacting.

Cheers,

Todd

[Doc Hudson]

ThistleStop wrote

Women's ready-to-wear has been so degraded by this kind of 'evolution' that it's nearly impossible to get a really well-made garment in a good fabric in any of the chain department stores, even the most expensive ones. Menswear is going in the same direction

Sorry to look like we are ganging up on you, but I disagree as well.

Let's look at men's clothing a moment. On one extreme we have the low price jeans and khaki work pants,$100.00 suits and cheap shirts from Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, and the like. At the other hand we have $3000.00 silk suits form Savile Row tailors, $500.00 shirts and $100.00 dollar ties to accompany them. Luckily, men's clothing has more hands than men because we also have in between levels. Brands like Levi Strauss, Dockers, Hart-Shaftner & Marx, and many other medium price and medium quality garments.

Kilt manufacturing is following the same pattern. We have the high price, and let's face it any article of clothing that costs more than a week's pay for the average individual is high priced, handmade custom wool kilts that equate Savile Row quality. We have the cheap knock-off like Sport Kilts that equate to the Wal-mart, K-Mart, Target level of price. We even have one maker of cheap kilts struggling to improve quality control and establish yet another middle price range on a lower scale (I just wish he'd be more considerate of fat folks ).

And we have folks like Bear, Rocky and others who inhabit the middle range. They are not cheap, but they are affordable without having to spend a mortgage payment on them. This, I think, is where the future of the kilt resides.

Without the people who are building the moderate priced kilts, the kilt will not evolve. The kilt will revert to something worn to weddings, funerals, and Robert Burns Dinners.

Will they replace the high dollar handmade custom kilts? No more than $100.00 Wal-Mart suits replace $3000.00 Savile Row suits. There are places for both ends of the spectrum. We need both ends of the spectrum or kilt wearing will fade away, again.

I hope you get to feeling better. Ask your other half to make you some potato soup. That can be tasty and easy on a tender stomach.[/code]

[Jimmy Carbomb]

This thread has actually become HILARIOUS!!!!!

A "traditional" kilt is exactly THAT. Take the slow evolution over the last three hundred years in the UK, and it's STILL basically the same. The kiltmakers are SCHOOLED, TRAINED, APPRENTICED, and CERTIFIED. These are the people that have instructed me for the last year... and I still have a load of training to go before I can do an apprenticeship! They are the FIRST to tell me how the information is learned, passed-on first-hand, and properly taught. I don't give a rat's **** what articles or websites tell otherwise. This information is coming from people who LIVE the kiltmaking life... as did generations of their families. THIS is why I have such a HIGH respect and appreciation for traditional kiltmakers. Until you wear thier kilts, meet them, talk to them about THEIR training, hear their LOVE of the craft... you just can't imagine what goes into an AUTHENTIC TRADITIONAL.

Casual Kilts are exactly that. I have as much regard for Bear's designs and craftsmanship as I do for the previous group. Here are kilts that are THE ORIGINALS in quality casual tartan kilts. Who did custom tartan non-wools in original designs before Bear? The original designs pull them away from the "traditional" look (a little) but then that's the man's trying to do. Ever worn a BearKilt? The things are so comfortable that you almost don't know that they're on! BearKils is the originator of the Poly/Viscose original casual tartan kilt in North America. The ones that he's putting-out now are unreal! Should they be compared to a "traditional" kilt? Nope. But then, they were never intended to be!

Casual/Traditional... now there's a term that could fit a LOAD of kilts! Three buckles, tight pleats, tartan, tapered apron and loads of material... BUT not made by a certified, trained, educated and apprenticed kiltmaker. Often they're not handsewn (except for a liner), aren't loop-sewn on the hips, and are made in ALL SORTS of materials.
Anything wrong with that? Nope. In fact, there's a HUGE group that's looking for just that! It may be that wool isn't their "friend". It could be that the money's not there for the big boys. Whatever the case, there's an alternative source for the "look".

Rather than debate on the materials, the designs, the costs or the origin... you might look at the kiltmakers. EVERY ONE of them is filling a niche that has been created by people like you. YOU may not have created the BearKilt niche... but he's supplying to guys who did. YOU may not need a three buckle, tightly pleated kilt for a "fin"... but Still
Water's supplying to guys who need exactly THAT.

EVEN IF WalMart or Urban Outfitters or Old Navy DO come-up with kilts... do you HONESTLY think that it will last for more than one freakin' year?! PLEASE! There will ALWAYS be a place for the kilt companies and their wares. Granted, it's not as big as the denim jeans companies demand... but it's there.

All this talk of WalMart kilts, Pakastani imports, and all this other "gloom-and-doom" CRACKS ME UP!!! I know exactly where that's coming from... and so do MANY of you.

Let's sit back and take a look at the spots that these kilt companies are filling. They may not fit your tastes or wallet, but there are a LOAD of guys that are happy with them. THIS is why I own kilts from NUMEROUS companies. It's REAL hard to compare and analyze if it's only speculation. It's also VERY tiring.

[Colin]

How about the Traditional USA Kilts that are made with the full amount of fabric, cut like a wool kilt, but just made out of PV?

Magnus, that is more of a traditional style kilt rather than a "traditional" kilt. I think we all have heard numerous times what makes a traditional kilt or "tank". Kudos to Rocky and Kelly for capturing the style of a traditional kilt in an alternative fabric, but I don't think it really qualifies as a traditional kilt.

I don't think that will happen.

Look at how the members of this board progress. Many will start out with a cheap Pakistani kilt. Then they see what else is out there and move up to a PV kilt from one of the well known kilt makers. They might get a few more PV kilts and then graduate to wool. I don't think anyone denies that the wool traditional kilt has its place at the head of the table. There will always be a place for the kilt makers who are better known for the quality of their wool kilts

You know, I couldn't agree more. I think that the majority of people on this and other forums would purchase a traditional hand sewn heavy wool kilt, if it fit their budget. The cheaper alternatives have provided people with the opportunity to explore the kilt, and see what they like and dislike about it. I started with a 4 yard Canadian tartan Bear kilt. I upgraded to a 4 yard clan tartan kilt from Bear (heavier fabric), and than to an 8 yard clan tartan kilt from Bear. I ordered a Canada kilt next for a more traditional fitting kilt. Next I will attempt to make a wool kilt using Barb's book. From their I will one day purchase a 16oz wool tartan kilt in another of my families tartans. It's a progression to the final goal.

[Manu]

Everything thta could be said has been said already. The less expensive materials (I dont like how the word cheap sounds for it) have provided the working class a chance to wear the kilt. Im sure all of us want to buy a traditional wool "tank", but to be honest I cant afford it right now, but I dont want to stop wearing the kilt. Thanks to Rocky and Bear, and other "casual" kiltmakersI can still enjoy it. I think we all recognize how awesome traditional kilts look, feel, and their quality, but for some it just not affordable.
BTW, I would hate for kilts to go mainstream. It would definetely ruin kilts, kiltwear, and the industry.

[Thistle Stop]

First of all, let me clarify that I am not predicting doom and gloom and the demise of the kilt. I was speaking of that hypothethically -- saying that I would not like to see kilts catch on as a popular clothing item with the general population because I think it would tend to have a detrimental effect on the traditional kiltmaking industry. But the fact is, I don't believe kilts will ever become that popular.

The invention of nontraditional kilts like the UK has little to no effect on the trad. kiltmaking industry -- it's a different garment with a different market.

Pakistani kilts, PV kilts made in the traditional style, and other less expensive alternatives to the traditional kilt that still have a similar look may have some impact on the kiltmaking industry, because there will be some people who are satisfied to wear them at weddings and Burns' Night Suppers and the other traditional kilt-wearing venues -- but I think the loss of traditional kilt sales they represent is probably offset by the expansion of the market they make possible, i.e., the rising casual kilt market. As I said to Bear, his market segment is like that of a small couture house, serving customers directly, just as many traditional kiltmakers do in Scotland. As Jimmy pointed out very well, there is a market for the mid-priced casual kilt, and Bear and others like him are doing a good job of fulfilling it. More power to them!

Jimmy, perhaps I'm misinterpreting your comment, 'All this talk of WalMart kilts, Pakastani imports, and all this other "gloom-and-doom" CRACKS ME UP!!! I know exactly where that's coming from... and so do MANY of you. '. But it rather sounds as if you mean that there's an ulterior motive to my hypothethical discussion of 'the Wal-Mart effect', which I assume would mean an economic one. If you think I'm championing the traditional kilt because I see it as my bread-and-butter and want to protect or promote my sales of them, you're mistaken. Kilts are probably the thing we sell LEAST of in my business, and we don't make much money on them, either. They are a low-profit-margin item for us, as well as being a lot of bother with all the measuring and arranging for a made-to-order garment. I am not in this business to become rich. I don't even make my living from it. I do it just because I love it and I wanted to save our shop from a certain death when the previous owner had to retire due to a stroke and there was no one else to take over. I love the Scottish-American community and Celtic culture and heritage and so I enjoy working in that milieu. My interest in kilts and other things Scottish stems from that personal connection and not from any kind of profit motive. I'm not trying to sound noble, just telling it like it is.

As for the speculation, the hypothetical talk of kilts as commonplace apparel, this thread is supposed to be about imagining how we might promote the kilt on a wider basis, and we were invited to be 'free form'. My position in the discussion is that I wouldn't want to see kilts take the place of jeans, so to speak, for all the reasons I outlined. My imagination suggested to me that mainstreaming the kilt might do harm to the traditional industry. But it's just imagining -- not a prediction. Sorry if you considered my thoughts tiresome and profit-motivated! (But I still love ya anyway, thù siol nan Gaidheal!)

Slàinte mhòr agad!

[Alan H]

This thread has actually become HILARIOUS!!!!!

A "traditional" kilt is exactly THAT. Take the slow evolution over the last three hundred years in the UK, and it's STILL basically the same. The kiltmakers are SCHOOLED, TRAINED, APPRENTICED, and CERTIFIED. These are the people that have instructed me for the last year... and I still have a load of training to go before I can do an apprenticeship! They are the FIRST to tell me how the information is learned, passed-on first-hand, and properly taught. I don't give a rat's **** what articles or websites tell otherwise. This information is coming from people who LIVE the kiltmaking life... as did generations of their families. THIS is why I have such a HIGH respect and appreciation for traditional kiltmakers. Until you wear thier kilts, meet them, talk to them about THEIR training, hear their LOVE of the craft... you just can't imagine what goes into an AUTHENTIC TRADITIONAL.

Casual Kilts are exactly that. I have as much regard for Bear's designs and craftsmanship as I do for the previous group. Here are kilts that are THE ORIGINALS in quality casual tartan kilts. Who did custom tartan non-wools in original designs before Bear? The original designs pull them away from the "traditional" look (a little) but then that's the man's trying to do. Ever worn a BearKilt? The things are so comfortable that you almost don't know that they're on! BearKils is the originator of the Poly/Viscose original casual tartan kilt in North America. The ones that he's putting-out now are unreal! Should they be compared to a "traditional" kilt? Nope. But then, they were never intended to be!

Casual/Traditional... now there's a term that could fit a LOAD of kilts! Three buckles, tight pleats, tartan, tapered apron and loads of material... BUT not made by a certified, trained, educated and apprenticed kiltmaker. Often they're not handsewn (except for a liner), aren't loop-sewn on the hips, and are made in ALL SORTS of materials.
Anything wrong with that? Nope. In fact, there's a HUGE group that's looking for just that! It may be that wool isn't their "friend". It could be that the money's not there for the big boys. Whatever the case, there's an alternative source for the "look".

Rather than debate on the materials, the designs, the costs or the origin... you might look at the kiltmakers. EVERY ONE of them is filling a niche that has been created by people like you. YOU may not have created the BearKilt niche... but he's supplying to guys who did. YOU may not need a three buckle, tightly pleated kilt for a "fin"... but Still
Water's supplying to guys who need exactly THAT.

EVEN IF WalMart or Urban Outfitters or Old Navy DO come-up with kilts... do you HONESTLY think that it will last for more than one freakin' year?! PLEASE! There will ALWAYS be a place for the kilt companies and their wares. Granted, it's not as big as the denim jeans companies demand... but it's there.

All this talk of WalMart kilts, Pakastani imports, and all this other "gloom-and-doom" CRACKS ME UP!!! I know exactly where that's coming from... and so do MANY of you.

Let's sit back and take a look at the spots that these kilt companies are filling. They may not fit your tastes or wallet, but there are a LOAD of guys that are happy with them. THIS is why I own kilts from NUMEROUS companies. It's REAL hard to compare and analyze if it's only speculation. It's also VERY tiring.

Yeah, what HE said.....

Here's my take on it. I've been wearing kilts for all of three months, now. Wow, three whole months. I own two, and the second one arrived last weekend. Am I going to keep wearing kilts for years?

I don't know. Maybe, maybe not.

For me to drop $450 - $600 on a kilt when I don't know for a fact that I'm going to wear it for years is maybe not so smart, eh?. And so, the Stillwater and the USA Kilt that I have are a great way to have something that I can wear "around" and try out this "kilt thing".

If a year or two goes by and I figure that I'm in this for the long term, then it makes sense for me to pick a tartan that is special to me with some care and get a top-quality garment made. I'll wear that garment to the Symphony, evening concerts, maybe some weddings (though most of my friends are already maried) and some other occasions. I don't get seriously dressed up much any more except for music events, really. I don't go to Burns Suppers. The "tank" kilt will not go to occasions where I'm likely to dump a cupload of coffee on it or where I might get a fistful of bicycle grease on it.

The "casual" kilts I'm wearing now work very well for the everyday situations that I spend most of my life in. You know, work where I'm going to meetings, schlepping carboard boxes with computers in it, and going to meetings where we drink gallons of coffee. I'd die if I dumped a cupload of java on a really, really nice kilt. I've already moved "up in the world" a bit and have an 8-yard MacNaughton PV kilt on order from Bear. Didn't take long, did it?

When the day comes, maybe a year ort two from now when (and if) I'm ready for the "kilt-for-a-lifetime" I will be extremely pleased to buy the finest quality garment I can, crafted by someone whose skill and dedication is unquestioned, and whom I respect. I've already started some inquiries about it, but I'll be going slow because I know full well that this will be a one-time purchase.