Why do you wear the kilt.

[Rob]

I think I might have some answers to Matt Newsome’s questions, but I also have a question of my own. Matt wrote:-

Keep in mind, as well, that until the latter nineteenth century, no one thought of themselves as "celtic." One was a Scot, and Irishman, a Welshman, etc. There was
no sense of belonging to some overarchign "celtic culture" at the time.

Matt,

When linguists first proposed the hypothesis of an Indo-European language family and filled in the structure of the family tree, it was soon realised that Welsh, Cornish, Manx, Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaelic were all members of the Celtic branch of the tree. This was the catalyst for the term ‘Celtic’ to be applied, not only to the languages themselves, but also to the inhabitants of these lands, as if they were all members of one big family or race.

So why then do we today have the Irish, Welsh, Cornish, and Manx wearing the kilt, and speaking of it as a "celtic" garment? It was never worn by any other celtic group. I think the origin must lie somewhere in the twentieth century.

So why the change? When did the kilt become a "pan-celtic" garment? Again, I'm not saying here that non-Scots should not wear the kilt. But when did this shift occur?

I have read in a Cornish web site that some time early in the second half of the last century, the Celtic Congress agreed that kilts and tartans should be adopted by all Celtic nations to demonstrate their Celtic family solidarity. If this is correct, then the decision seems to have been taken despite that fact that there had never been any tradition of tartans or kilt wearing among the Welsh, Manx or Cornish peoples. This led to a veritable explosion of new designs of Welsh, Manx and Cornish tartans, and the Irish got in on the act by augmenting their solid coloured kilts with new tartan designs.

This may explain all of the new tartans, but one question remains unanswered. How did the solid coloured Irish kilt come into being well before the middle of the last century? I recall seeing an old black and white photograph, taken in the 1920s, of a class of teenage Irish boys in a school hall performing physical exercises, and they were all wearing dark solid coloured kilts. Does anyone know how this tradition of solid coloured kilts got started?

Rob

[Thistle Stop]

I think I might have some answers to Matt Newsome’s questions, but I also have a question of my own. Matt wrote:-

Keep in mind, as well, that until the latter nineteenth century, no one thought of themselves as "celtic." One was a Scot, and Irishman, a Welshman, etc. There was
no sense of belonging to some overarchign "celtic culture" at the time.

Matt,

When linguists first proposed the hypothesis of an Indo-European language family and filled in the structure of the family tree, it was soon realised that Welsh, Cornish, Manx, Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaelic were all members of the Celtic branch of the tree. This was the catalyst for the term ‘Celtic’ to be applied, not only to the languages themselves, but also to the inhabitants of these lands, as if they were all members of one big family or race.

So why then do we today have the Irish, Welsh, Cornish, and Manx wearing the kilt, and speaking of it as a "celtic" garment? It was never worn by any other celtic group. I think the origin must lie somewhere in the twentieth century.

So why the change? When did the kilt become a "pan-celtic" garment? Again, I'm not saying here that non-Scots should not wear the kilt. But when did this shift occur?

I have read in a Cornish web site that some time early in the second half of the last century, the Celtic Congress agreed that kilts and tartans should be adopted by all Celtic nations to demonstrate their Celtic family solidarity. If this is correct, then the decision seems to have been taken despite that fact that there had never been any tradition of tartans or kilt wearing among the Welsh, Manx or Cornish peoples. This led to a veritable explosion of new designs of Welsh, Manx and Cornish tartans, and the Irish got in on the act by augmenting their solid coloured kilts with new tartan designs.

This may explain all of the new tartans, but one question remains unanswered. How did the solid coloured Irish kilt come into being well before the middle of the last century? I recall seeing an old black and white photograph, taken in the 1920s, of a class of teenage Irish boys in a school hall performing physical exercises, and they were all wearing dark solid coloured kilts. Does anyone know how this tradition of solid coloured kilts got started?

Rob

You're right -- Irish boys in some areas did wear self-coloured kilts years ago -- I had forgotten about that! So obviously that has nothing to do with either of my theories (parades and tartanism). But I've heard men talk about wearing the kilt on a regular basis in Ireland, in the earlier part of the 20th century. We need some good research now to straighten this out!

I guess Howie Nicholsby (Geoffrey, Tailor/21st Century Kilts) isn't as innovative as some people think!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

First of all, solid color (or self-colored) kilts are nothing new. The famous MacIan portraits of the 1840s included two figures in solid kilts -- his MacIntyre was in a solid blue kilt, and his Fergussion in a solid saffron kilt. Even before that, the earliest portrait we have of someone in a solid kilt is the Campbell of Lochawe, wearing a solid red feileadh-mhor and this was in 1635. So they have been around just about as long as kilts in general have -- they have simply never been as popular as tartan kilts.

But when did you start to see them in Ireland? I'm not sure, but if I had to guess I would say late nineteenth century at the earliest. Irish pipe bands, and I know some military regiments, as well (though I don't have a lot of information on the Irish military) wore saffron kilts. This was more than likely a nod to the tradition of "saffron shirts" that was common in both Ireland and Scotland in the sixteenth century. (Many people, in fact, attempted to identify the pleated, skirt-like bottom of these shirts as "Irish kilts" so this may be why they chose this color). An interesting side note -- the original saffron dyes of the sixteenth century produced a very pure canary yellow, not a muddy-brown yellow like saffron kilts today.

And then you have solid green kilts worn in Ireland, the "Emerald Isle." This probably came about simply because you would have someone Irish who wanted to wear a kilt, they were not Scottish so they had no tartan, so they chose green to identify with their country. For the same reason, Cornish men would wear a solid black kilt (from the colors of the Cornish flag) before the invention of the Cornish tartans in the 1960s.

Aye,
Matt

[M. A. C. Newsome]

KiltedBishop wrote:

First I know I haven't found anything either and many people I know wish they could find his evidence. in the mean time I am willing go a little on faith and give the benefit of the doubt. is it beyond reason it could have been and we didn't find anything yet? sure. could I be off my rocker and believing a fantasy? just as certainly. But like I said I am going a little on faith and it is just a gut feeling I have.

Well, it is a little far fetched. Especially when you consider that not even the Scottish clans had such a system. The "clan=tartan" identity is not something that existed in the actual Gaelic Scottish clan system. The notion that you belonged to Clan X, and therefore you wore this pattern; or that you lived in this village and therefore wore this tartan, is something that was created out of nineteenth century Scottish romanticism, long after the break down of clan society, and long after the kilt became purely a ceremonial garment for most people.

So not even in Scotland do we have a system like this. So why would we beleive that such a system was used in Ireland, with different families identified by different colored kilts? Especially if we beleive his claim that he has discovered over 200 different such colors. My goodness! Do you think you could identify 200 different shades of colors? How would the dye lots be maintained? And what happened when the colors started to fade? When my bright red MacGuire kilt started to fade to a lighter red, do I give it to the Murphy down the road? The whole thing just sounds a bit problematic, especially since there is absolutely no recorded evidence of it at all.

I'm just saying we should base our historical knowledge on the best of what we do know for certain, and less on conjecture and fancy.

Aye,
Matt

[macwilkin]

But when did you start to see them in Ireland? I'm not sure, but if I had to guess I would say late nineteenth century at the earliest. Irish pipe bands, and I know some military regiments, as well (though I don't have a lot of information on the Irish military) wore saffron kilts. This was more than likely a nod to the tradition of "saffron shirts" that was common in both Ireland and Scotland in the sixteenth century. (Many people, in fact, attempted to identify the pleated, skirt-like bottom of these shirts as "Irish kilts" so this may be why they chose this color). An interesting side note -- the original saffron dyes of the sixteenth century produced a very pure canary yellow, not a muddy-brown yellow like saffron kilts today.

And then you have solid green kilts worn in Ireland, the "Emerald Isle." This probably came about simply because you would have someone Irish who wanted to wear a kilt, they were not Scottish so they had no tartan, so they chose green to identify with their country. For the same reason, Cornish men would wear a solid black kilt (from the colors of the Cornish flag) before the invention of the Cornish tartans in the 1960s.

I would say 19th century on the saffron kilt in Irish regiments of the British Army, but for musicians only --- the average rank & file of the Irish Regiments did not wear a uniform with saffron-coloured kilts, even to this day. I have seen pictures of students from St. Edna's School for Boys wearing kilts -- Patrick Pearse, one of the leaders of the 1916 uprising, was the headmaster and very much into Irish nationalism, and hoped that the kilt would encourage patriotic feelings. Several other revolutionaries wore saffron or green kilts, and one played the ulillean (sic?) pipes for the Pope dressed in a kilt. The only unit I know of today in the Irish Defence Forces that wears the kilt is the Pipes & Drums of the Irish Air Force. The Royal Irish Regiment of the British Army, recently deployed to Iraq, still maintains its pipe band in saffron kilt, and I think the London Irish Regiment (Territorials -- like the US National Guard) still has pipers in kilts as well -- the London Irish, btw, wear their Caubeens, a balmoral-like headgear, with the cap badge over the right eye, and not the left, as is custom in the British & Commonwealth nations.

According to "District Tartans", the Manx National Tartan was designed in 1958, The Cornish National in 1963, and the Welsh National in 1967. The society in Cardiff that designed the Welsh National gave these reasons, among others:

1. To be fully united with other Celtic countries
2. To strengthen Celtic ties & give visible signs of being an individual nation in culture, language and dress.

It appears that the outgrowth of nationalism among the other Celtic nations after the Second World War, with the exception of the Irish, is when the kilt began to be idenitified with the "pan-Celtic" movement.

Cheers,

Todd

[Rob]

For the same reason, Cornish men would wear a solid black kilt (from the colors of the Cornish flag) before the invention of the Cornish tartans in the 1960s.

Matt,

I certainly remember the solid black Cornish kilt. A Cornish work colleague of mine wore one in the mid 1960s, and they were often to be seen at Cornish ceremonial events. However, they seem to have gone out of fashion now that the Cornish tartans have appeared.

Since the 1980s, other English counties have adopted their own district tartans, especially those where Celtic ancestry is dominant, e.g. Devon and Somerset.

Rob

[bubba]

Bubba,

Do you recall how old, or to what date was attributed to those artifacts? I have a vague memory of reading about it, but I can't recall the details.

As I recall the mummies were something like 3500 years old.

[kilt by death]

Though I think most Americans, if asked, would say kilts are Scottish,

Oh, this brings a smile to me.... I was in W. Florida: Ft. Myers to be precise. Talking to someone who, upon learning that I was from Scotland, asked (with great pride) "Isn't that IN England?

It was TOO funny to be offended.

That said: the kilt...

Have worn a kilt (black tie BPC jacket) since I was 16. (UK equivalent of the "Prom"). Used to wear it often in Black Tie bashes, which I do attend regularly.

Then, AND DO NOT LAUGH HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, American Football came to Europe. Can't remember what it was called when it started, but I think it is called NFLE now.

Anyway, I was a supporter of the Scottish Claymores. A bunch of us guys were asked to unofficially "Cheerlead" at games, etc. Was GREAT fun. We were taken to Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Berlin, etc: anywhere they needed a party, they took us there to start one!!!

So, there we were: kilts, playing strips and the saltire on our faces. Doing "routines" (that even included the "Tilla Line" {spelling?!?}) on game day, getting the crowd going, leading our national team onto the hallowed turfs of Hampden AND Murrayfield. We even , erm, "danced" live on US TV when the World Bowl was held in Scotland.

Anyway, a little background and a little off topic meander. The point is, it got me into wearing the kilt more informally. This, meeting Howie again (who skipped the same school at the same times as my wee bro) and seeing a press cutting on Hamish got me thinking that I could pull off the whole "kilts 24/7" thing.

Why?
Because I am a Scot.
Because they are very cool and comfy.
Because I am individual enough to get away with it!!
Oh, and because it feels amazing.

Sorry if this was too long and boring... went off on one.

[kilt by death]

First of all, solid color (or self-colored) kilts are nothing new. The famous MacIan portraits of the 1840s included two figures in solid kilts -- his MacIntyre was in a solid blue kilt, and his Fergussion in a solid saffron kilt. Even before that, the earliest portrait we have of someone in a solid kilt is the Campbell of Lochawe, wearing a solid red feileadh-mhor and this was in 1635. So they have been around just about as long as kilts in general have -- they have simply never been as popular as tartan kilts.

Question:

After Culloden, tartan was outlawed. So, what kilts did Scots wear then?

(Is why I think my silk wool kilt is so cool. {see gallery} Makes me invisage those times in a sad, manly trying to be a warrior but know I'm a wimp kinda way )

[KiltedBishop]

KiltedBishop wrote:

First I know I haven't found anything either and many people I know wish they could find his evidence. in the mean time I am willing go a little on faith and give the benefit of the doubt. is it beyond reason it could have been and we didn't find anything yet? sure. could I be off my rocker and believing a fantasy? just as certainly. But like I said I am going a little on faith and it is just a gut feeling I have.

Well, it is a little far fetched. Especially when you consider that not even the Scottish clans had such a system. The "clan=tartan" identity is not something that existed in the actual Gaelic Scottish clan system. The notion that you belonged to Clan X, and therefore you wore this pattern; or that you lived in this village and therefore wore this tartan, is something that was created out of nineteenth century Scottish romanticism, long after the break down of clan society, and long after the kilt became purely a ceremonial garment for most people.

So not even in Scotland do we have a system like this. So why would we beleive that such a system was used in Ireland, with different families identified by different colored kilts? Especially if we beleive his claim that he has discovered over 200 different such colors. My goodness! Do you think you could identify 200 different shades of colors? How would the dye lots be maintained? And what happened when the colors started to fade? When my bright red MacGuire kilt started to fade to a lighter red, do I give it to the Murphy down the road? The whole thing just sounds a bit problematic, especially since there is absolutely no recorded evidence of it at all.

I'm just saying we should base our historical knowledge on the best of what we do know for certain, and less on conjecture and fancy.

Aye,
Matt

I agree with you totally. Though I hadn't thought about it quite as humrously as passing your kilt to the next family cause the color faded. As each brings new information all we can hope is pieces were not completely lost to the maw of time. I would like to say it is great having people with a such a strong historical knowledge base!
I seem to remember that the English goverment/Crown outlawed saffron as a dye at one time? Which of course led to more and more people wanting to use it as such. The yellow I have seen of that color I find much more beautiful than the mustard like color we find now days. Thanks Matt!