A question to stump the tartan experts.

[Dreadbelly]

That is a chakram.

I guess it looks like a wagon wheel.

[BEEDEE]

Dreadbelly - here's a link to some information on Gypsy jewelry: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/roadsh...psy/gypsy.html

You might think about incorporating some of their designs in a belt buckle or kilt pin.

Brian

[gilmore]

there is also this:

There is also this:
<<<TINKERING WITH THE MACPHEES

Following recent correspondence within these pages concerning MacPhees and travelling people, your Editor's eye was caught by a recent article in the Sunday Herald by Ajay Close. The article primarily focused on Martin Taylor, the world famous jazz guitarist, who has recently made a television documentary about traveller culture and its vital role in preserving traditional music.

Travelling people have long been central figures in Scottish folklore but we know as little about them today as we did 500 years ago. Perhaps even less. The terminology doesn’t help. In England, "gypsy" is acceptable, but in Scotland not, the term "traveller" being the preferred label. The communities north and south of the Border also speak different languages - in England, a variation on the Romany also spoken by Roma people in France and the Sinti in Germany; in Scotland, Cant is the language of the travelling people. In Ireland, travellers speak a third language, Shelta.

How far this reflects any ethnic distinction between the groups is unclear. The Roma left Northern India 1000 years ago for a nomadic life in Europe. They were tinsmiths (hence the word “tinker”) and horse people who lived apart from the settled community. But the Scottish travellers believe themselves different from the Roma. The story handed down over the centuries was that they came from Ethiopia, and only later intermarried with the Roma who travelled North. A third ingredient in the genetic melting pot were those Scots defeated in clan warfare who took to the road rather than swear allegiance to a rival clan chief. This, of course, is where the MacPhees (of all spellings) come into this particular picture.

But back to Martin Taylor who, it transpires, is from traveller stock on his father’s side, which could partly explain why he has recently formed a gypsy band, 'Le Nouveau Trio Gitan', with French gypsy guitarist Christian Escoude and David Reinhardt, grandson of jazz legend Django - this development has its own pleasing symmetry, since it was Django’s music which first spurred the boy Martin to pick up a guitar. A simple twist of fate...

But there we go, digressing again. Don't worry, it's just an age thing apparently.

Part of Martin's documentary (still to be screened) focuses on the legendary superstitiousness of the travelling people and a number of superstitions are discussed. The most interesting one however, at least from a Corncrake point of view, came from Martin himself when he disclosed that in his family it is considered to be tempting providence to say the word or name "MacPhee" before mid-day!

So, does any Reader know the origins of this superstition, or indeed anything at all that they could share with other Corncrake readers about the history of MacPhees as travelling people?

By the way, it is still conmmon practice on Colonsay not to say the name MacPhee before mid-day, but this usually follows a Darts match the previous evening...>>>http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/corncr.../cornb128.html


There are some surnames associated with travellers: MacPhee, Faas and Shaw and others. Some must have "their very own" tartan.

[gilmore]

That is a chakram.

I guess it looks like a wagon wheel.

But it is a wheel. "Chakra"=Sanskrit for "wheel."

[M. A. C. Newsome]

So, it's OK to invent a totally bogus tartan as long as its name makes some reference to a fictional character in a popular novel, movie or TV show, but not OK to invent a totally bogus tartan based on actual, living surnames?

Or now it's OK that totally bogus tartans falsely attributed to surnames were invented 200 years ago, but it's not OK that totally bogus tartans falsely attributed to surnames were invented within the last 10-15 years? Is there a set point in time when tartans cease being bogus and become authentic?

I am just trying to get it straight in my head.

When you deal in terms such as "bogus tartan" and "authentic tartan" it gets very confusing, very fast.

First of all, I don't know if there is really such a thing as a "bogus" tartan. I mean, if it's been woven and worn, it's a tartan, whether it has any authority behind it or not. And that's the real key to making a tartan "official" -- who has the authority to proclaim it so?

For a clan, that's easy. It's the clan cheif. So if the cheif of the Clan Campbell, the Duke of Argyle, says such-and-such is a clan tartan, then it truly is so. And if he says a certain tartan categorically is not (like the popular "Campbell of Argyle tartan") then it is not an official tartan of the clan. That's his perogative.

Does this mean Campbell of Argyle is not a real tartan? Not at all. It's certainly a real tartan. It's just a real tartan that has no official status with the clan.

Does this mean no one can invent or design new tartan? Certainly not, the tartan industry would sputter out and die without new designs. But I, and most other tartan enthusiasts I dare say, only think some degree of responsibility be used when doing so.

For instance, there is a Scottish-based individual who designed two new tartans for North and South Carolina a few years back. The only problem is that both states already had passed legislation recognizing the Carolina tartan as the official state tartan. There was no reason to introduce competing tartans at that point. Promoting them as state tartans only causes confusion (and beleive me there is more than enough confusion in the tartan world!).

The Irish County tartans created by House of Edgar likewise are non-official tartans. They have no recognition by the Irish government. However, unlike the situation described above, there were no other "county" tartan preexisting. And these tartans have been broadly accepted by the tartan wearing public. Now, with the introduction of a new line of county tartans by Marton Mills, we'll see how that develops, but Edgar has a good decade of tartan recognition on them.

But this can lead to problems. I talked to one women who ordered a kilt from an on-line company in the County Clare tartan. She was expecting the County Clare tartan from House of Edgar, as it was the only one she had ever seen. What she got was the Clare tartan from Martin Mills. She emailed the company to ask why the kilt she bought for her husband looked soo different from what she expected. They told her it was the "dress tartan" for the county!

Anyway, I'm getting off point here. For a better example, let's look at the Aberdeen tartan. It's been around since 1794 and maybe longer. Like the Irish county tartans mentioned above, it has no official status with the City of Aberdeen. But it was 200 years of tradition behind it. Among tartanologists (to coin a word) we call this tartan official through "want and usage." It's the same way with some clans who do not have recognizes cheifs but who have been using the same tartan for 150 years of more. They acquire an official status through time and tradition.

Does a tartan that is only 10 years old have this? I don't know. It's a grey area, I admit.

So I have no problem with people designing and promoting new tartans. I just ask that they be honest about it.

Regarding the Welsh tartan center, again -- and I mean this comment not as a review of their product or customer service, which I have no experience with and which by all that I read is just fine -- but they, at one time at least, had on their web site some "history" that was entirely bogus and clearly meant to mislead people into beliveing that kilts were a part of ancient Welsh tradition.

See my blog post of April 15, 2005:
http://blog.albanach.org/2005/04/welsh-tartans.html
They may have changed their web site since then, and I hope they have. The information they had on there was simply false. That's the kind of thing that I really don't want to see in the tartan industry.

Aye,
Matt

[MacWage]

To add a bit to this matter . . .

Tartans: the patterns themselves may be of VERY old vintage and "proof" or be fairly new (with only a "happy coincidence" to any old found material). The naming came about around 1800. To add to that was the romanticism of Walter Scott, Robbie Burns, and the like. The visit by King George IV to Edinburgh in 1814 (if I recall the date off the top of my head) was "Imagineered" by Scott and left many clans and chiefs scrambling to ID and get their hands on "their" tartans. The myths and legends of tartans became propigated, popularized, AND produced during this period. The mills were all to happy to supply what was in such demand. There was even a Robin Hood tartan (the "Rob Roy" red/black, but in green/black), which has been renamed now but is STILL to be found.

The names were a marked improvement over the previous numberingh system, which varied mill to mill. Why?
Think of the Carolina tartan, the Caledonia tartan, and the Prince Charlie one with blue and red. They are all VERY similar. Think of a customer who wanted some and couldn't remember the name. "I want some of the one with the green on red and the red on blue, with the touches of yellow, black, and white. That could be any of a NUMBER sold by Wilson's and not identifyible. Some of the names were superfulous and some arbitrary, while others based on an old portrait, scrap, or some other source. The clans the adopted these tartans. A man named MacPherson and another named Kidd ordered ("adopted") a large amount of the same one (Wilson's Caledonia No. 43, if I remember right). Now, there has been some differenciation created to separate the two, as both are now seen as the respective clan tartans. If that MacPherson have ordered another pattern, say the similar Wilson's No. 1, that might be the clan tartan today. The names made all the different tartans to be able to tell one from another, plus the added "romance" that the name adds to the pattern.
The tartans are now accepted either by common usage or official adoption by the chief or official representative authority over the relevant group. If there was a "gypsy chief" or head and they adopted a tartan, it would BE the official tartan. Also, a series of gypsies could adopt a tartan, have it woven, and it could become a gypsy tartan. They could either design a new tartan, or adopt a historic one, like the Meg Merrilees tartan.
-- http://www.merrileesclan.org.nz/tartan.html

A bit of research into what colors are associated with the gypsies you are related to or any relevant patterns/colors/patterns, or a contact with request as to what you are doing and seeking to know what a "tell-tell" mark of that gypsy group is, such as a scarf, head wrap, coat, or the like. There might even be a tartan design that might either be found (ideal) or result from the relevant research.

[smaughazard]

Dreadbelly, this is a VERY interesting thread! If I might offer a stop-gap solution, how about a chakram-shaped kilt-pin? That shouldn't be TOO hard to find or make…

[Wompet]

STOP THE PRESSES!

Here is a tartan with a "gypsy connection":

The Meg Merrilees tartan was first produced by William Wilson of Bannockburn in 1829 to celebrate the fictional gypsy character in Sir Walter Scott's novel "Guy Mannering" published in 1815.

-- http://www.merrileesclan.org.nz/tartan.html

or

-- http://www.electricscotland.com/tartans/story4.htm

So there you go.

Cheers,

Todd

I looked at a few pages of traditionally dressed Roma this afternoon, back when this thread started. The men appeared to be wearing dark (black) pants and solid-colored, predominantly red, shirts. Hopefully this meets with a small measure of satisfaction those wanting historical basis and ... coincedentally ... are the predominant colors of the Merrilees tartan.
So, you have two colors found in traditional male Roma clothing. The black could also represent the historical oppression of the Roma by several cultures. The red could be the preservation of the people and their will to survive. The white stripe is the Traveller's Path of Freedom, and the black stripes are the twin tracks of the Roma wagons.

My two cents. The kilted dog is returning to his corner by the fire.

[Kid Cossack]

Wompet---I like your suggestion!

[McClef]

Regarding the Welsh tartan center, again -- and I mean this comment not as a review of their product or customer service, which I have no experience with and which by all that I read is just fine -- but they, at one time at least, had on their web site some "history" that was entirely bogus and clearly meant to mislead people into beliveing that kilts were a part of ancient Welsh tradition.

See my blog post of April 15, 2005:
http://blog.albanach.org/2005/04/welsh-tartans.html
They may have changed their web site since then, and I hope they have. The information they had on there was simply false. That's the kind of thing that I really don't want to see in the tartan industry.

Aye,
Matt

Thanks for the clarification Matt.

They have changed their webmaster and hence their site. There is a brief reference to revival of celtic tradition which can be taken with a wee pinch of sodium chloride but the emphasis is very much on pride in Wales of today.

http://welshtartans.bpweb.net/

If you wish to challenge this further there is a "contact us" button.

I have found them very responsive to suggestions/criticisms.