Royal Regiment of Scotland

[Jock Scot]

I don't mean to be contentious, and I hope this will not be mistaken, but in reading this thread I thought of two very different kilts that I have owned. The first was a Stillwater heavyweight in weathered Lamont tartan. This was (I have since sold it) an eight yard tartan kilt pleated to the sett. I hasten to point out that it was also machine-sewn in Pakistan.

The second kilt is (I still have it!) a Matt Newsome box pleated tweed kilt. It was made from four yards of Harris tweed, and hand sewn.

Both, in my view, are kilts.

Common perception, certainly here in America, and doubtless also in Scotland, would be that the SWK weathered Lamont was the "real kilt." I.e., it conforms to the popular understanding of "eight yards, tartan, knife pleated."

However, by any "traditionalist" measure the Newsome box pleat is far more a "real kilt." The wool is from the Isle of Harris. I believe the Harris Tweed Authority defines Harris tweed as "cloth that has been handwoven by the islanders of Lewis, Harris, Uist and Barra in their homes, using pure virgin wool that has been dyed and spun in the Outer Hebrides." My understanding and belief after reasonable inquiry is that Matt Newsome sews all his kilts by hand.

I only offer this comparison to point out the cognitive dissonance that may go hand in hand with any attempt to place absolute definitions on what a thing is.

You are of course quite correct,but you are missing my point. The perception of what the Scots call a "real" kilt is not the one(second one) you describe. It is the 8 yard, knife pleated,wool, tartan, etc.,etc. And nothing else will do. In spite of what history, you , me, Matt who know better , say.

[Phil]

Take for example, the wearing of white tie by gentlemen from Perth. Not seen on everyone, of course, but see even less in other parts of the highlands.

I must say I have rarely seen a white tie with highland dress apart from graduation day at St. Andrews.

And my favourite, tartan jackets. Certainly they are not common, and one can usually find somebody wearing one almost anywhere, but you really do stand a greater chance of seeing one worn to a ball or party in the Western Highlands. I don't know why.

Tartan jackets are even less common and it may have a lot to do with the difficulty of obtaining one. None of the mainstream highland dress outlets seem to be interested in any type of "one-off" tailoring and, although I am fortunate here in Edinburgh there are really no proper tailors elsewhere in Scotland that I know of.

Jabots, too. I know you wear one. My friends, and my experience, tell me that they are much more in evidence in the Western Highlands.

Jabots. Well they were really the normal thing if I cast my mind back to my younger days. That was in the west of Scotland and I must say I rarely, if ever see one here. Again a lot must be down to the limited range highland outfitters are prepared to stock. I know Geoffrey Tailor stopped stocking buckle brogues a few years ago and the assistant there looked at me as if I had horns for even asking about them. I do see that jabots are coming back again although getting a collarless shirt is another matter. Stuart Christie stock them fortunately.

I wasn't really thinking of the more formal dress variations, though, but the daywear such as that of Jock's in his "What would the Victorians think" thread is virtually identical to what I would wear. As to the younger generation, even although they might accessorise with ankle boots, scrunched down socks and a rugby shirt, they will still wear a traditional, probably 8 yard, knife pleated kilt. It is that one item, I think, the kilt that defines to all the various kilt-wearers their Scottish tradition and is the one item, certainly here in Scotland at least and with very few exceptions, that does not vary between regions and generations.

[Kid Cossack]

Jock Scot:

No, sir, I took your point. I may have been going off on a tangent, as I frequently do. Of the few contentious episodes that have occurred as a result of being kilted, a couple of them involved Scots who objected to modern/casual/neo-traditional kilts I have worn. One fellow insisted that the Newsome kilt was not, in point of fact, a kilt, but a skirt, and that thus I was cross-dressing. (He was neither angry nor offended, he simply thought I was in the wrong in calling it a kilt.)

I laid out my line of argument (heavily cribbed from Matt Newsome): hand sewn of Scottish wool, using a traditional early kilt pattern, and, I believe, even referencing John Brown's tweed kilts. He was unswayed by my arguments. "Very well," says I to he, "then by your standards I am cross dressing, but by my standards, I am not. By my standards, I am kilted." Then he bought me a tot of whisky, and I bought him one, and we parted with nary a hard word between us.

I prefer to be respectful, as a matter of courtesy and good manners. However, frequently I am willing to "swim against the tide" as it were, if I am convinced that I am in the right (after suitable investigation and contemplation).

I should also point out that, even when casually kilted (to include such "heresies" as a camouflage kilt), I have had a number of positive encounters with Scots tourists or immigrants who have approved of my adoption of a (modified form of) their national dress.

If---nay, when!---I travel to Scotland, I may compromise my principles in the interest of comity and wear what is popularly accepted as a true kilt. But should I refrain from wearing a box pleated or other short yardage kilt, I will be doing so out of courtesy for prevailing opinion, and not out of any sense that my "lesser" kilts are "less" in any sense save yardage.

[Jock Scot]

Kid Cossack

I am all for courtesy and understanding and I am not in the least surprised that one of the Scots called your box pleated kilt a skirt. I am delighted that it all ended well with a wee dram!

By all means wear your box pleated kilt in Scotland and you will be made very welcome,be prepared(you are, I suppose!) for confused looks at the very least. Have fun.

[Tony]

welcome,be prepared(you are, I suppose!) for confused looks at the very least. Have fun.

Let's be honest.
Most of the confused looks from Scots would be because of "Why's that guy wearing a kilt? There's no a game today is there?", not because it was a box-pleat.

(this post is only a quarter tongue in cheek.)

[Jock Scot]

Let's be honest.
Most of the confused looks from Scots would be because of "Why's that guy wearing a kilt? There's no a game today is there?", not because it was a box-pleat.

(this post is only a quarter tongue in cheek.)

I wish you were right, sadly I don't think you are.

[Tim Little]

I think the answer is that Matt just needs to open a branch of the STM somewhere in Scotland; I nominate Jock Scot as the Docent.

So, did Ziggy's original question get answered yet?

[Jock Scot]

I think the answer is that Matt just needs to open a branch of the STM somewhere in Scotland; I nominate Jock Scot as the Docent.

So, did Ziggy's original question get answered yet?

That sounds fine to me!

As to Ziggy's question. I hope so!

[ziggy]

Well gentleman, look at what I have started.. haha

To answer and say whether my question has been answered, sort of. I gather at one point the Black Watch wore knife pleats, then at some point they went and started wearing box pleats....and I assume military box pleats in the sense that it'd be 8 yards... logic being, I assume the blackwatch wear kilts as their dress uniform, and in Scotland especially, that WOULD be a close to 8 yard kilt (maybe 6 - 7, those guys are in shape) because a military dress uniform is acceptable formal wear.

Anywho, I guess the other question, they do pleat to set, or too stripe? for box pleats maybe only stripe is possible, and if so, which stripe.

Personally, when I asked this I didn't want to know what a "real kilt" was just what the Black Watch wear, although one might suspect that what they wear would be very rich and respcted in Scottish Tradition.

Can anyone complete the thought for me?

[Wompet]

Here's a What Price Glory reproduction Black Watch:

Knife pleated, to the ... either the black stripe or the "no-stripe" in the blue undercheck, I can't tell which.