very surprised at the reaction at church.

[Kornkob]

And what if they have neither a reasonable nor valid position? Does their humanity alone rate their argument the same degree of consideration as one which is reasonable and valid?

Assuming that the other party doesn't have some valid reason sets up a scenario wherein you cannot find common ground, you can only try to force the other party to acquiesce. In general, my experience is that there is no resolving the conflict by taking up a contrary position without even trying to understand and respect the other position--- largely because it is not really attempting to reach some to an understanding.

It's going to be very hard to get someone to see your position as reasonable and valid, if your primary 'talking point' amounts to "you are wrong and I am right".

There can be unresolvable differences of opinion, to be sure, but if you start a discussion having already decided that the other party has no valid reason for their position, then you haven't made an earnest attempt to resolve your differences and are merely positing an alternative edict.

Earlier someone pointed out an example in which the administration of a religious school objected to someone's intended behavior and chose to engage in a dialog in which they encouraged discussion about the motives and reasoning. This clearly showed respect for the other party and, as it turned out, they were able to resolve their differences in a positive and constructive manner. I am merely suggesting that most conflicts can be resolved in this manner.

[Nighthawk]

Assuming that the other party doesn't have some valid reason sets up a scenario wherein you cannot find common ground, you can only try to force the other party to acquiesce. In general, my experience is that there is no resolving the conflict by taking up a contrary position without even trying to understand and respect the other position--- largely because it is not really attempting to reach some to an understanding.

It's going to be very hard to get someone to see your position as reasonable and valid, if your primary 'talking point' amounts to "you are wrong and I am right".

There can be unresolvable differences of opinion, to be sure, but if you start a discussion having already decided that the other party has no valid reason for their position, then you haven't made an earnest attempt to resolve your differences and are merely positing an alternative edict.

Earlier someone pointed out an example in which the administration of a religious school objected to someone's intended behavior and chose to engage in a dialog in which they encouraged discussion about the motives and reasoning. This clearly showed respect for the other party and, as it turned out, they were able to resolve their differences in a positive and constructive manner. I am merely suggesting that most conflicts can be resolved in this manner.

That's all well and good, and I tend to agree. But the simple fact of life is that, sometimes, there are people who just can't be reasoned with. Take that Baptist church that is promoting the burning of Qurans on 9/11! Seriously- what in the name of all the gods are these people thinking? They insist, and have a book out to prove, that Islam is from the Devil! They had their kids wear t shirts to school stating that Islam is from the devil, and then got all shocked and shaken and up in arms when their kids were sent home to change!! There are some people with whom you just can't reason. So the answer to Wildrover's question is simple- try to reason until reason fails. And then hit them over the head with a proverbial club. Some people just need it. Most don't mind you, but the question was not about those who can be reasoned with- it was about those who can't be! What do I do with unreasonable people?

[Kornkob]

Most don't mind you, but the question was not about those who can be reasoned with- it was about those who can't be! What do I do with unreasonable people?

I did not see anything in the OP that indicated to me that this was someone who had already indicated they were not able to be reasoned with or otherwise engaged in fruitful dialog. I don't think that this particular situation quite yet warrants a club, proverbial or otherwise.

[wildrover]

Take that Baptist church that is promoting the burning of Qurans on 9/11!

I don't suppose that was the infamous Phelps and his dogs?

I did not see anything in the OP that indicated to me that this was someone who had already indicated they were not able to be reasoned with or otherwise engaged in fruitful dialog.

I guess we'll be agreeing to disagree, on that point. IMHO, the guy crossed the line, see post #19. Fair warning to anyone who might think that's ok, don't try that nonsense with my kid.

There are a lot of people like that guy in the world. The only difference here is his belief, and the supporting belief of those around him, that he has a divine mandate to exercise his human opinion.

[Kornkob]

I guess we'll be agreeing to disagree, on that point. IMHO, the guy crossed the line, see post #19. Fair warning to anyone who might think that's ok, don't try that nonsense with my kid..

*shrug* I suppose we can do that. I didn't read that as someone who is completely unreasonable and not capable of entering into a dialog but merely someone who is perhaps misinformed about kilts and decided on a course of action that was, perhaps, ill advised.

[Dixiecat]

*shrug* I suppose we can do that. I didn't read that as someone who is completely unreasonable and not capable of entering into a dialog but merely someone who is perhaps misinformed about kilts and decided on a course of action that was, perhaps, ill advised.

Taken from a post from the OP:

While he's not a bad man he isn't willing to listen

This is behaviour that describes unreasonableness.

[morrison]

My 12 year old son wore his kilt to our church sunday (Mormon) and was told by the bishop (a congregational leader) he couldn't participate if he wore his kilt. His older cousin was told by his bishop a few weeks ago when he wore his kilt in idaho that he wasn't welcome at church if he wore it again.
Has anyone else of another faith (or I guess the same) gotten such negative responses when they wear a kilt to church. Just wondering.

When I was quite young, a fourth grade student, I think, while in a church service one time, a woman accidentally tripped as she ascended a stairway to a balcony. On her way down, in the clamor some of us boys saw her in person and were distracted. We weren't saved that day. The pastor should probably have had the stairwell closed and forbade women from ascending stairs in the future. Descent would be fine, as the individual would already be going the right direction.
Another time during church services fire trucks went by with sirens wailing. Police cars sped by also with screaming sirens as they passed. The fire trucks put out a small grass fire and rumbled by again going back from the put out fire just before the end of services. In the disturbance no one was saved that day. The pastor should have ordered the streets be closed to traffic and routed around another neighborhood during Sunday service hours.
While in the municipal swim pool one afternoon I, at 4'11" height sank to the waters' bottom of the 5foot area. Unconscious and incapacitated I lay silent under the water. A life guard near the dive boards didn't notice the still body halfway across the pool. Fortunately for me, Donald Prince, the other on duty life guard with sunscreen generously applied, spotted the boy beneath the surface. He rushed in, pulled the kid out and resuscitated him back to consciousness. I was saved that day. No pastor made any declarations and the next time church service was held, as usual, they didn't hold them at the local swimming pool. Neither was there a baptism that day.

Now, with all the levity dispensed with, I hope the young fellow, your son, finds his self will and wit to be undisturbed and continues defying the church leadership in that matter of Kilt wearing at church. May you, your son & the rest of the family be protected as probable lightning rods for undue attention in the flap of the Kilt in church during services.

[Marshal Moroni]

Grizzbass,

As Riverkilt said I have been kilted throughout Utah, BYU Education week and here at home in Southern California. I rarely wear my kilt to Sacrament Meeting. However, have only gotten positive comments when I have. I almost always wear my kilt to Ward Activities and often when Home Teaching.

I agree with the distraction comment, not with the sweatpants comment.

Part of the reason I have not worn my kilt to Sacrament meeting was that I had been serving as a Bishop's Counselor and did not want to prove a distraction on the stand.

Here's a previously unasked question. Was your son wearing a white shirt and solid color tie? For me, the distraction is the key, if your son was dressed in an appropriate manner (usually considered to be a white shirt and tie, slacks (which could be substituted for a kilt) dress shoes and socks.

Perhaps the sudden kilt wearing simply shocked your poor Bishop. Perhaps he needs to get used to the idea. And as always remember that the Gospel is what's perfect, not people (yes, even Bishops are human).

Simple and respectful are key issues in LDS Sacrament Meetings.

I hope this helps, perhaps you could cut and paste some of the responses to this post from LDS members and share them with your Bishop. Most of them are truly good men trying their best. I know that mine have always been.

Cheers,

Marshal Moroni

PS. Thanks to Riverkilt to alerting me to this thread and thanks for posting the pictures of me (I have a hard time remembering how to do that).

[Nighthawk]

I did not see anything in the OP that indicated to me that this was someone who had already indicated they were not able to be reasoned with or otherwise engaged in fruitful dialog. I don't think that this particular situation quite yet warrants a club, proverbial or otherwise.

In the original post, no. You're right. It was then mentioned that the pastor actually took the young man aside, without parental consent, to inform him of how wrong wearing the kilt is. He went in direct and intentional contravention of the parents. That deserves a good clubbing.

[crboltz]

I have been kilted in church. Before the move to my current city (Fresno), I would occasionally attend choir practice kilted, but I never attended that church services kilted (except for my wedding). Since moving to Fresno, the former minister of our church (who retired some years ago and returned to this church), informed my husband and I that we were to attend the service before National Tartan Day kilted. Our current minister thought we should wear our kilts to services more often, but we discovered that as wonderful as the kilt is, it makes our choir robes hang funny, so we haven't.

In the end, I suppose all churches are different. If the young man's self expression is more important to him than the congregation with which he worships, he might consider seeking out a different congregation. If the congregation is more important, he should consider trying to change the attitudes from with in.

Cheers
Chris