Whatever has happened to manners

[Lyle1]

Common courtesy and common sense; two things that, sadly, are not as common as they used to be. The current generation learns from the generation before it, which in turn learned from the previous generation however, from what I've seen of the current generation, those teachings seem to have skipped a generation.

Well, it was easier in previous generations! Most everyone grew up with a firm knowledge of their place in the social scheme of things. They knew their place, meaning that they knew who was better than they were and who was lower on the scale than they were. Unfortunately, manners went one way; you definitely observed the conventions when dealing with your social superiors, and probably with your equals. Those who were considered lower than yourself paid deference to you.

Many of us grew up being told by older generations that in America everyone was equal and that gentlemen gave up their seats for ladies. Then we saw the reality. Gentlemen did give up their seats to women of their own social class and race, and were considered boorish if they did not. However, a black women could be jailed for refusing to give up her seat on a bus to a white man when ordered to do so, and many "well mannered" people defended that action and, further, said protesters were uppity. How many times during the 1960's did I here that "some of them are OK because they "know their place", which really meant, did not try to sit beside their betters or exercise their constitutional rights. Much of what I was taught stuck with me, but not because of the example of the people who were teaching me. It stuck because I recognized that what they said about how to treat others was a good way to live, even if they did not really live that way themselves.

After WWI, the social order changed drastically in Europe as thousands of young men from the lower orders returned from the trenches and refused to honor the old social rules that meant that they tipped their hats to their social betters and did not quite make eye contact with them unless spoken to directly. I think the same thing happened in the USA after WWII and continues today.

So, do we follow the example of previous generations? I personally hope that we do not, but I also hope that we have the wisdom to retain what was good about the customs and practices of previous generations.

I really tried to stay out of this discussion, but I succumbed to the temptation. I did not mean to offend, though clearly I did. I was going to apologize, but I think that would be an inappropriate thing to do. Maybe at least one person who reads this tread will stop to think about the intent of manners rather than being proud of the rote performance of what he was told was the correct way to act.

[Chas]

Well said, Lyle. Well said.

Regards

Chas

[Alan H]

Lyle1...

Spot on. Well said. RESPECT.

[Meggers]

While I certainly agree with you, Derek, and the others that posted on this thread about the lack of manners in today's society, I would also say that I would have helped this person out because she is old and weak NOT because she is female. Women's liberation killed chivalry and Equality means Equal Responsibilty. I hope, Derek, that you would have shown the same courtesy and helpfulness to an elderly man in the same situation.

This is always a hot spot with girls but I really think my own gender has a very skewed opinion on what feminism means. Feminism is not the death of traditional lifestyle. In fact, in MY opinion, it enforces the traditional lifestyle. (note: what I am about to say applies to ME ONLY and probably does not reflect the opinions of most women. lol) I like a man who acts like a traditional man. I like my man to hold the door open for me, cut the grass, hook up the electronics, pay on dates (most of the time...sorry), be the main breadwinner, etc. etc. This doesn't make me less than him when I don't do those things, it makes me the yin to his yang. Just because he's cutting the grass and I'm making dinner doesn't make me the oppressed one. We are working together to bring harmony and balance. That makes us equals. Without each other, the balance is offset and everything gets messed up. My mom is a stay-at-home mom and my dad goes out and works. This doesnt make my mom oppressed nor does it make her a lazy housewife. She had kids to stay home with and raise. Her job was way harder than a 9-5.

This whole mess about not letting men keep traditional manners around because it "degrades women to less than a man" is a load of crap.

And I dont care if my kids are the only kids who are born within the next 10 years to grow up with manners, they WILL be polite. They will say their pleases and thank yous, hold doors open, let the elderly sit first, etc. Or else they will have a very disappointed mommy to answer to.

[creagdhubh]

Lyle said,

"So, do we follow the example of previous generations? I personally hope that we do not, but I also hope that we have the wisdom to retain what was good about the customs and practices of previous generations."

Wonderful statement, Lyle! I also agree with the entirety of your post, however, the particular statement above, in my opinion, really hits the nail on the head.

Cheers mate,

[Peter Crowe]

Well, it was easier in previous generations! Most everyone grew up with a firm knowledge of their place in the social scheme of things. They knew their place, meaning that they knew who was better than they were and who was lower on the scale than they were. Unfortunately, manners went one way; you definitely observed the conventions when dealing with your social superiors, and probably with your equals. Those who were considered lower than yourself paid deference to you.

Many of us grew up being told by older generations that in America everyone was equal and that gentlemen gave up their seats for ladies. Then we saw the reality. Gentlemen did give up their seats to women of their own social class and race, and were considered boorish if they did not. However, a black women could be jailed for refusing to give up her seat on a bus to a white man when ordered to do so, and many "well mannered" people defended that action and, further, said protesters were uppity. How many times during the 1960's did I here that "some of them are OK because they "know their place", which really meant, did not try to sit beside their betters or exercise their constitutional rights. Much of what I was taught stuck with me, but not because of the example of the people who were teaching me. It stuck because I recognized that what they said about how to treat others was a good way to live, even if they did not really live that way themselves.

After WWI, the social order changed drastically in Europe as thousands of young men from the lower orders returned from the trenches and refused to honor the old social rules that meant that they tipped their hats to their social betters and did not quite make eye contact with them unless spoken to directly. I think the same thing happened in the USA after WWII and continues today.

So, do we follow the example of previous generations? I personally hope that we do not, but I also hope that we have the wisdom to retain what was good about the customs and practices of previous generations.

I really tried to stay out of this discussion, but I succumbed to the temptation. I did not mean to offend, though clearly I did. I was going to apologize, but I think that would be an inappropriate thing to do. Maybe at least one person who reads this tread will stop to think about the intent of manners rather than being proud of the rote performance of what he was told was the correct way to act.

Indeed Lyle what you have very eloquently stated above has (along with Kyle and Chas) my full agreement. I personally find custom and tradition efficacious guides to both manners and kilt-wearing. However, I am also acutely aware that traditions are evolutionary phenomena which have to adapt to new realities, be they social, economic, or political, otherwise they ossify and die out.

[Jack Daw]

I believe in exercising manners, certainly. But, I might add that I was tripped up by them once. I was visiting a friend at a hotel once that was also hosting a women's conference for something I don't recall. I was at the elevator when one of the sessions in a close-by ballroom let out. All these ladies headed for the elevator bank where I was waiting. Certainly, a couple of elevators arrived and I politely let both elevators fill up to leave me and still several ladies behind. Then, before the next elevator opened, another group of ladies came up, and I let them on when the next elevator arrived. Finally, another elevator arrived, and still I let another group of ladies on. I finally gave up and walked up several flights to get where I was going. Great exercise, stair-climbing!

[be da veva]

Younger, I dated a powerlifter. Funny thing about manners and such. She'd been squatting about 300lbs and when she was done I went and told her that I would get those heavy plates off the bar for her.... That's when she said '' What's with you guys... you don't think I can get those 45lbs plates off myself.... jeeesh....''

Yep, manners are a good thing, but intelligence and wisdom are also required...

My .02CAD$

[Cowher]

Deleted. Not worth the risk.

[Newfoundlander]

I've been following this thread for some time now, and have to say, I enjoy reading everyones point of view on this topic.

The only thing I can say really is, I am what I am, and I am how I was raised, and I'll live the manners and values that I have. That's just the way it is. Even for me at 28 being part of the "current generation."

Is that against current convention? Possibly.

Does that matter to me? Not in the slightest.

Some here have mention being rebuked for acting as gentlemen, and for say, holding the door for a lady. I have experienced this once. A singular time. Out of the hundreds of times I've held the door for ladies. So, by far and away, most ladies I've encountered have been appreciative.

I am currently a Masters student at Dalhousie University in Halifax. DAL is a school dominated by female students for a total of approx. 60%+ of the student population. So I get the opportunity to hold the door for quite a few young ladies, and have gotten reactions ranging from "thanks," to a simple smile, to "its nice to know there are still some polite guys left."

On the other side of that coin, would these young ladies on their way to class mind if a young lad didn't hold the door for her? I have no idea, I'm not a young lady. Perhaps I'll ask a young lady I work with whose also an MSc student and see what she says...

A thought did just pop into my head though. Many of us here have these good manners that may be against current convention for manners, regardless of our age. An ideal that is somewhat off the mainstream (seemingly). I wonder now if this is in any way linked to wearing a kilt? Which is to say, wearing an article of clothing that is decidedly off the mainstream (Scotland notwithstanding)? I could be making an association that certainly does not exist, but it's interesting to ponder for a bit anyway...

Anyway ladies and gentlemen, I'll leave that there for now and go think about my thesis!