Kilting in Church - Sgian dubh?

[OC Richard]

There were people there in Indian formal wear, African, Mexican, etc, and it was a lovely multicultural function.

Interesting. Are you saying that people were dressed in Indian, African, and Mexican folk costume? In that case a kilt would fit in nicely.

The church I go to is also multicultural: people of European descent are in the minority and there are large proportions of Latinos, Philipinos, Vietnamese, and so forth. (The only time anything said or sung is understood by everyone is when it's in Latin, as a large proportion speak no English.)

But except for the occasional woman in a Sari, everyone is dressed in ordinary clothing, and a kilt would draw attention to the wearer.

[creagdhubh]

I am sorry, but one can only wonder if you chaps should be wearing the kilt at all, if you have to make this concession or that concession to these overly sensitive types?We have some rough parts of town in Scotland and whilst I think I have been quite safe being there, there have been times when it was more prudent to not to wear the kilt.

My point is this. Do you have to wear the kilt and normal accessories? No. Do you need to? Probably not. Do you want to? Yes. Should you consider others? Yes. Should others consider you? Yes. Do we live in a perfect world? No. So the obvious question follows. Should we use our discretion? Yes!

Let us follow this on further.

Would I have to be asking myself all these questions if I wore a suit? NO! So, should I wear the kilt if I can't wear it properly within Scots traditions?-----

Just saying.

Fantastic points, Jock! And I always wear a sgian dubh.

Cheers,

[TheBrus]

Clearly, this was a fruitful discussion; er, there was a great quantity of discussion on this.

[Father Bill]

I did all three services yesterday kilted, with my sghian in my sock.

Of course, I had my robes on and nobody knew what I was wearing until I took them off after the last service. Very positive, delighted response. One fellow asked to see the sghian because it was an antler handle daywear version. I was pleased to offer it to him, and he was fascinated and appreciative, as were those about him.

End of story.

[Father Bill]

When somebody says that something is forbidden in church, I always wonder in which denomination and in which nation. The church is a very long way from being united on anything.

[Gael Ridire]

Although this isn't a church but a few years ago the "Cultural Heritage Center" was built in a local city as a place for all ethnic groups to assemble at and celebrate. When the local Scottish association applied to hold their festival there they were told, "you cannot wear the knife in your socks or have any any blade weapon... . Also no pole tossing it might hit the power lines...and no bagpipes they are to loud." (the reason stated was to prevent gang violence of which that city does have a problem) Needless to say not one say not one person from the British isles has ever entered the grounds out of protest and another location was found.

[Nighthawk]

Interesting. Are you saying that people were dressed in Indian, African, and Mexican folk costume? In that case a kilt would fit in nicely.

The church I go to is also multicultural: people of European descent are in the minority and there are large proportions of Latinos, Philipinos, Vietnamese, and so forth. (The only time anything said or sung is understood by everyone is when it's in Latin, as a large proportion speak no English.)

But except for the occasional woman in a Sari, everyone is dressed in ordinary clothing, and a kilt would draw attention to the wearer.

At larger, more special services- Christmas Eve, Easter, Thanksgiving, etc- there is often a plethora of folk costume. The African members, on a normal basis, wear African clothing. The Hispanic members often wear what (to my eyes) looks like Hispanic clothing- snake skin boots with curled toes, embroidered shirts, sometimes suede waistcoats, cowboy hats, etc. A kilt in our congregation is very much in keeping with the atmosphere of the church, and I get disappointed comments on the rare occasion that I don't wear one.

As a matter of fact, before Thanksgiving every year, we have a Breads Of The World mass, where we are encouraged to not only wear cultural garb, but historical cultural garb, and to bring a loaf of bread from our culture to be blessed. We have a group of Mayan dancers who attend wearing next to nothing but feathers and a few leather and linen pieces. They do have the good courtesy to wear spandex shorts, however. So I have worn my historical reenactment garb to that particular service.

[davidg]

I am happy to agree to disagree Chas but I think your examples are the exceptions to which I refer.

I'm more than happy to agree with MacRobert as I will also agree to disagree with Chas. I would also add that there is a general rule that men remove head dress when entering church, but there are exceptions to that rule as well and usually related to the military or uniformed organisations in certain circumstances

Personally I have both worn a sgian and not worn a sgian when conducting services. I am slightly more comfortable with not wearing though because that is the prevailing tradition. Does it really matter these day - probably not and I doubt anyone will turn a hair and certainly will not throw you out of church

Could I remind whoever said that wearing a sgian is no different to carrying a pocket knife that if you carry ANY knife in Scotland you are committing an imprisonable offence so wearing a sgian is definitely not the same here. In the UK as a whole any knife that forms part of ethnic dress can be legally carried but only if the blade is no longer than 6 inches. Sgian blades here are NOT sharpened as that would constitute the carrying of an offensive weapon, as would the carrying of a 6.5 inch sgian UNLESS you had purchased it prior to the change in the law two years ago

[Chas]

I'm more than happy to agree with MacRobert as I will also agree to disagree with Chas. I would also add that there is a general rule that men remove head dress when entering church, but there are exceptions to that rule as well and usually related to the military or uniformed organisations in certain circumstances

Personally I have both worn a sgian and not worn a sgian when conducting services. I am slightly more comfortable with not wearing though because that is the prevailing tradition. Does it really matter these day - probably not and I doubt anyone will turn a hair and certainly will not throw you out of church

Could I remind whoever said that wearing a sgian is no different to carrying a pocket knife that if you carry ANY knife in Scotland you are committing an imprisonable offence so wearing a sgian is definitely not the same here. In the UK as a whole any knife that forms part of ethnic dress can be legally carried but only if the blade is no longer than 6 inches. Sgian blades here are NOT sharpened as that would constitute the carrying of an offensive weapon, as would the carrying of a 6.5 inch sgian UNLESS you had purchased it prior to the change in the law two years ago

David, you and MacRobert's Reply are both missing the point. The point being that in the UK only the military and the special armed units of the police go about their daily business, in public, armed. So they are the only people that one would reasonable expect to find armed in church and there is no rule preventing them doing so. So the General Rule is an exception to itself?

MacRobert's Reply said that there was a general rule. I disagreed. You are disagreeing with me. So, please quote the General Rule and state where this is written down. A URL or a quick scan of an official document will do and I will gladly apologise.

Paragraph 2 - have you publicly admitted to an imprisonable offence? Why would you do that?

Actually not, This is the real law in Scotland as it applies today -

Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995
Part VI
MISCELLANEOUS AND GENERAL
49 - Offence of having in public place article with blade or point.

49 Offence of having in public place article with blade or point.(1)Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence and liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding [F10twelve] months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both; and
(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding [F11four] years or a fine or both.
(2)Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed.
(3)This section does not apply to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade does not exceed three inches (7.62 centimetres).
(4)It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) above to [F12show that the person had a reasonable excuse] or lawful authority for having the article with him in the public place.
(5)Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) above to [F13show] that he had the article with him—
(a)for use at work;
(b)for religious reasons; or
(c)as part of any national costume.
(6)Where a person is convicted of an offence under subsection (1) above the court may make an order for the forfeiture of any article to which the offence relates, and any article forfeited under this subsection shall (subject to section 193 of the M4Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 (suspension of forfeiture etc, pending appeal)) be disposed of as the court may direct.
[F14(7)In this section, “public place” has the same meaning as in section 47(4).]

You can't just make these things up.

I am sorry, but nothing of what you are saying makes any sense. Nobody in Scotland sells a sgian dubh that has not been sharpened.

Rab Gordon (a respected member here and internationally known sgian maker) sells sharp sgians from his workshop in the middle of Scotland. He has been doing so for numerous years. If it was an offence, surely someone would have stopped him by now.

Bemused

Chas

[biblemonkey]

I wear my knife in my sock every time I wear hose with my kilt at church. Noone minds it at all. Noone usually even notices it.