Scots-Irish

[MacBean]

When my family arrived in South Carolina in 1767, the record called those arriving on the same ship, "poor Irish Protestants", which was what the colony was looking for and paid for. They weren't indentured, their passage was paid, they were granted land in the far interior of South Carolina (near the Cherokee), and each given a quite reasonable money grubstake. For the next two generations they married other families of Scottish descent and moved west rapidly. My own family was in Missouri by 1806. Although my direct family did not intermarry with Native Americans, this did occur and one finds Scottish names among the Cherokee today.

So this small bit of evidence backs up what others have said, only I think the people may have been called Irish Protestants at the time rather than Irish Presbyterians. This is similar to the Church Affiliation Census in Ireland in 1766, where families were recorded as Catholic, Protestant, or Dissenters (the term Presbyterian did not seem to be used). In my own family's case, there is no evidence that they were ever Presbyterian; Episcopalian or perhaps Methodist seems more likely.

[Blackrose87]

When my family arrived in South Carolina in 1767, the record called those arriving on the same ship, "poor Irish Protestants", which was what the colony was looking for and paid for. They weren't indentured, their passage was paid, they were granted land in the far interior of South Carolina (near the Cherokee), and each given a quite reasonable money grubstake. For the next two generations they married other families of Scottish descent and moved west rapidly. My own family was in Missouri by 1806. Although my direct family did not intermarry with Native Americans, this did occur and one finds Scottish names among the Cherokee today.

So this small bit of evidence backs up what others have said, only I think the people may have been called Irish Protestants at the time rather than Irish Presbyterians. This is similar to the Church Affiliation Census in Ireland in 1766, where families were recorded as Catholic, Protestant, or Dissenters (the term Presbyterian did not seem to be used). In my own family's case, there is no evidence that they were ever Presbyterian; Episcopalian or perhaps Methodist seems more likely.

If they were Irish Protestants from Ulster but not Presbyterians, then they would most likely be CoI. The Methodist church in Ireland didn't begin until 1784, which wouldn't fit with your dates.

In Ireland, non-Catholic Christian religions still tend to be grouped together. This is especially evident in the north, with the catholic-Protestant divisions.

[cck]

As an American and a bit of a mongrel as many of us are, I had asumed that when one described his ancestry as Scotch/Irish he might be just lumping the two together without being more specific. To some, this apparently has a more distinct meaning. Now that the subject has come up, I find myself caught somewhere in the middle. My family name is Craig, commonly found all over Scotland. I was never under the impression it was Irish. However, my great-great grandfather was born in Dublin. John O'Hart in his 1878 book, "Irish Pedigrees, the Origin and Stem of the Irish Nation," has a section on the name Craig and mentions him. The line is traced directly back to Scotland. Where does that put us? Scottish, Irish, Scotch/Irish, an Ulster dropping?

[Blackrose87]

As an American and a bit of a mongrel as many of us are, I had asumed that when one described his ancestry as Scotch/Irish he might be just lumping the two together without being more specific. To some, this apparently has a more distinct meaning. Now that the subject has come up, I find myself caught somewhere in the middle. My family name is Craig, commonly found all over Scotland. I was never under the impression it was Irish. However, my great-great grandfather was born in Dublin. John O'Hart in his 1878 book, "Irish Pedigrees, the Origin and Stem of the Irish Nation," has a section on the name Craig and mentions him. The line is traced directly back to Scotland. Where does that put us? Scottish, Irish, Scotch/Irish, an Ulster dropping?

I suppose it depends how long your family lived in Ireland, and how much they mixed with the native population while here.
My family most likely came to Ireland from Scotland during the Ulster plantation. But I've never considered myself to be Scottish in any way, as this happened over 400 years ago.
I think the term "Irish-Irish" seems to be used here

But many in the other side of the community in the north of Ireland have stayed more serrated as a community and not mixed with the native Catholic people here. So they still hold on to their Scottish roots, with wearing the kilt, flying the Saltire and speaking the hamely tongue.

So I suppose it's the culture and traditions that surround you which influence your heritage. While I consider myself 100% Irish, if I had grown up with my fathers family in mid-Antrim I'd likely consider myself Ulster-Scots.

[John_Carrick]

Many (most?) Ulster Unionists and Ulster Scots describe themselves as Irish and a large proportion of Nationalists do not currently favour a united Ireland. Lots of people here have two passports, me included.
John

[Blackrose87]

Many (most?) Ulster Unionists and Ulster Scots describe themselves as Irish and a large proportion of Nationalists do not currently favour a united Ireland. Lots of people here have two passports, me included.
John

Sorry, what's a united Ireland got to do with this discussion?
I cant see where Nationalist politics were mentioned previously. I apologise if I mentioned such politics, but I don't think I did, as I have tried to remain with the forum rules. I understand it is hard to avoid politic labelswhen describing different communities in the north of Ireland , as they are often the easiest to use. But nowhere have I went into my views on the current political situation there, and I would be grateful if you did not either. I would prefer if this thread wasn't closed by the moderators, so please don't bring your political views into this discussion.

Anyway, yes most Ulster-Scots describe themselves as Irish, with Scottish ancestry. Hence the term Ulster-Scot.

[John_Carrick]

I didn't express any views other than observe that identities are complicated and can be paradoxical here.
I will absent myself from your thread.

[Blackrose87]

I didn't express any views other than observe that identities are complicated and can be paradoxical here.
I will absent myself from your thread.

Sorry, reading over my post, it comes off a bit harsh there. Didn't mean it that way, its just that I have found when our politics are discussed, things tend to become heated quite quickly and I wouldn't want the thread to be derailed.
I don't agree with your statement that most nationalists don't want the reunification of Ireland, but I think that's probably best discussed elsewhere.

[John_Carrick]

I shall dig out some opinion poll data and send it privately when I get a chance. It is interesting but agree this is not the place for it.
John

[MacLowlife]

Back to phenotypes for a moment. It might be useful to note that the population of much of the deep south (Va, NC, SC, Ga, Alabama?) remained very stable for a long time.

That is partially true, at least. While families sent second sons and/or went west to Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, etc., many white southerners have remained where they were "planted" for hundreds of years. (The migration of black Americans and Native Americans from the south is a long and different story, but that is not the group we are discussing.) As Jim and David and others have observed, some of this is myth and some is highlighting the (currently) favored ethnic group. And I know before I say so that there are many exceptions, but from the mid 19th century up until WWII, the population of most Southern states had come from the British Isles and pretty much stayed there. (or Africa or Huguenot France...) Sure, many small towns have Greek grocers or restauranteurs (or their grandchildren who are lawyers and doctors,) and there are Jewish communities older than the liberty bell in Savannah and Charleston, but the typical white southerner's physiognomy is completely devoid of slavic or nordic or mediterranean features. That is, when my father went to Ireland in 1985, all he had to do was to put on the flat cap he'd brought with him to blend in with the locals. And a friend's father went to the Shetland Isles (or the Hebrides) and reported the same thing.

Untangling the genealogy a little, I find Swiss Hugeuenots, French Huguenots, Derbyshire English, Anglo Irish from Dundalk, and yes, Scots from East Lothian, all crowding my family tree. Those are the easy-to-identify ones. They all either blend or assimilate into that Southern American type known as Scotch/Scots Irish. By comparison, I have a lady friend who grew up in Buffalo, New York. She has Irish Catholic ancestors on all sides. And she and her siblings live In SC as part of the great Post WWII change, but they do not really look like South Caroliinians of a generation or two ago- and neither do my friends who came here from Poland in the late 50s, or Cuba, or God Save Us, New York City.

So maybe the locals at Knocktopher could spot my father as a Yank, and maybe his small stature wasn't quite enough to let him pass as one of Kilkenny's own, and maybe the locals in the Shetlands know their neighbors well enough to spot a stranger, no matter how familiar his cheekbones, but they all looked like our cousins in the pictures.