No longer a question specifically for Jock

[Nathan]

<snip>Some however still have a hard time making this separation. To many in the world today there are only four reasons to wear a kilt.
1 – You are in a Pipe Band,
2 – You are in the military uniform of a kilted regiment,
3 – You are attending a Highland Games, or are representing the country of Scotland,
4 - You are Gay.

I submit that quite a few of those who join this forum are looking for acceptance for wearing a kilt outside of one of these four traditional and accepted reasons.
<snip> I simply do not care what color a members’ skin is. I don’t care what your religion, political beliefs or sexual preference is. And frankly I don’t want to know. I will not judge another member on any of these things as long as you unite with me in this one single passion about wearing a kilt.

Nathan, it all comes back to the original concept of our founder. A place on the web where the kilt is the only thing that matters. A haven if you will from all the why's. The one place on the web where we are united and not wedged apart because of why we chose a particular garment in the morning.<snip>


<snip>

We are not, and were never intended to be, the “be-all-and-end-all” of internet communities.

Nathan, X Marks is, and will always remain, about the kilt. In whatever way and for whatever reason you choose to wear it.

I don't have a problem with most of what you said, but I will say that while it might benefit you as a kilt maker if the whole world started wearing kilts, I think it's important to remember that the kilt is a cultural garment. While I have no problems whatsoever with people of any background finding the cultural dress of my people nice enough to wear and emulate, attempts to appropriate this symbol and to divorce it entirely from it's Highland origins are greatly offensive.

I come here because there are people here who have studied the history of tartan and Highland attire like Matt Newsome and Peter MacDonald. I come here because OCRichard has a great collection of vintage photographs to help put things into context. I am also here because gentlemen like Jock Scot, Phil, Neloon and Kyle can comment on how the kilt is worn in it's natural habitat. I come here to learn about Scottish heraldry from folks like Harold Cannon and MacMillan of Rathdown.

I don't come here because nobody ever gets upset, I come here because of the members and I don't think I'm alone. They know things that I don't and have made me more knowledgable about my cultural dress. I think this is why xmarks has been so successful. It is because these experts choose to give their time freely and have posted so many excellent and informative threads that any time you Google for information about these topics, you end up here.

I don't wear the kilt traditionally to avoid being mistaken for gay, I wear the kilt traditionally because our cultural traditions deserve to be respected. It's the same reason I play traditional Scottish music and struggle through my traditional language. Does every generation of tradition bearers have the right to adapt the tradition to their time? Certainly, but this should be done with care and respect to continuity.

I know tradition bearers that are gay who wear the kilt as a symbol of their Highland heritage, not as a statement of their sexual orientation.

If dandies or goths or punks or homosexuals or Irish Americans or New Age druids or any other subculture wants to adopt the kilt, they are welcome to do so but it's not just clothing for everyone. To some of us, it's a link to the past and a statement of identity. It's the hand of our fathers passing down a symbol of a way of life that's been all but crushed under the boot of empire. This is not meant to exclude anyone at all, but simply to affirm and take ownership of our cultural inheritance. Long after these fads pass and the mainstream moves on, Scots (around the world), pipers and members of Scottish military regiments will still be kilted.

This forum should be open to all voices and of course it should be about the kilt. I just hope there will still be room for the voice of the tradition bearers because if they leave, this place will be a shadow of its former glory.

If long time contributors feel alienated, you should ask yourself why this is. Has mass paranoia set in or do they have a point in there somewhere?

[neloon]

Steve,
X marks the Scot.
"Hank thought it was a catchy play on words. And it is."
No, it isn't. And it is exceedingly offensive to Scots.
"X" seems to mark historical re-enactors, peacock fashionistas, possibly some of minority sexual inclinations, those with stitching skills, people dreaming of mythical roots, social climbers who have shaken hands with their "chief", those who think the kilt has to do with weapons or armed service, women writing racy novels about Highland hunks, genealogists, Gaelic learners, etc., etc....... And a very few very patient Scots whose patience may simply be running out. Of course it is great to have the diversity. But many members, moderators and yourself seem so easily to lose track of the reality of who started it all and what it's really all about. And there is very little can be done to increase your understanding because you are simply ... not Scots.
Alan

[TheOfficialBren]

I agree with Nathan's post above.

I would, respectfully submitted, underpin that the kilt stripped of the heritage and history surrounding it is just mind-boggling.

I will not speak for everyone here but I will say this:

I wear the kilt because as a newbie I wanted to get in touch with some of my ancestors. Were they all Scots? No, but many of them were. The kilt is a symbol--a very potent one.

The "don't ask, don't tell" facet of Steve's premise is not without a lot of merit, and there is certainly a socio-political dynamic behind it that is, for good reason, remain the elephant in the room in the perceived interest of civility.

I understand the desire to compartmentalise and control. Sorry, Steve, but that is exactly what I see but it IS your prerogative. You own the site and the off button. Your passion for the kilt is noted and you do the modern Pan-Celtic world a great service by keeping this place open.
We are not ganging up on you and attacking personally. You asked for honest feedback, sir. You are getting what you have asked for.

Now, as the Regimental Kiltmaker for HM forcs in your area of her Canadian realm you are also a tradition-bearer. As such you are a living facet of the points above-mentioned so much better by others. Isn't it inconsistent to maintain some of the stances that you have above-mentioned yourself whilst seemingly divorcing the issues from tje garment?

Without the history and heritage behing the garment it is just a fancy and expensive man skirt...and without the cultural underlining I, personally, wouldn't bother with it. That is the sole reason that I wear the kilt. It is not a costume and even when I did occasionally wear my kilt on stage it was never intended to lampoon or parody or use it for shock value or an amusing costume.

Consider that you may be taking the pulse of the Rabble...but some of use are taking the pulse of which businesses we will do business with in the future. Highland wear is expensive, even for a cheap rig. Bear that in mind, please.

[Domehead]

The more each contributor attempts to explain themselves, the more obfuscated the point is.

This forum has rules.
The moderators are obligated to apply these rules under a very specific, now illuminated,structure.
Mr. Ashton has provided both statistical and empirical data which supports the success produced by this procedural application.

Although not black and white, this is about right and wrong.
It is right to participate freely in Mr. Ashton's forum under the pretenses he protects and espouses.
It is wrong to challenge these when they are so clearly stated, having been so long established with so effective a history.

Two items of note:
1. Mr. Newsome, Mr. MacDonald, Mr. Smith-MacPherson, among others so esteemed and previously referenced, do not participate in this manner of discourse.
2. Personally, I've yet to read a suggestion in the manner Mr. Ashton is seeking:
Rule #13...da, da, da
Rule #2.c...da, da, da
Moderator's Procedural Alteration: opens to Senior Forum Contributor's Board of Review...da, da, da
Iconography driven sub-forum threads warning of volatile content...da, da, da

Domehead

[Domehead]

Steve,
X marks the Scot.
"Hank thought it was a catchy play on words. And it is."
No, it isn't. And it is exceedingly offensive to Scots.
"X" seems to mark historical re-enactors, peacock fashionistas, possibly some of minority sexual inclinations, those with stitching skills, people dreaming of mythical roots, social climbers who have shaken hands with their "chief", those who think the kilt has to do with weapons or armed service, women writing racy novels about Highland hunks, genealogists, Gaelic learners, etc., etc....... And a very few very patient Scots whose patience may simply be running out. Of course it is great to have the diversity. But many members, moderators and yourself seem so easily to lose track of the reality of who started it all and what it's really all about. And there is very little can be done to increase your understanding because you are simply ... not Scots.
Alan

Because I believe Mr. Ashton won't dignify your retort, I will.
Please educate me as to "what it is all about"

Domehead

[Phil]

Because I believe Mr. Ashton won't dignify your retort, I will.
Please educate me as to "what it is all about"

Domehead

I think that neloon as one of the last 4 active Scots to participate in this forum was trying to enunciate the feelings of many Scots about the attempts by others, who have no knowledge, belief or interest in the traditions and soul of Scottish people, to use what is an unmistakeable national icon -the kilt as some sort of trivial item to be used in any form at a whim. This deeply held belief may come as a surprise to someone who has no personal affinity to any historical background of any significance but you may take it from me that it is not something to be regarded lightly.
If you choose to dismiss such sentiment lightly then you demonstrate a lack of any understanding of these national values.

[A Lenape Scot]

Steve,
X marks the Scot.
"Hank thought it was a catchy play on words. And it is."
No, it isn't. And it is exceedingly offensive to Scots.
"X" seems to mark historical re-enactors, peacock fashionistas, possibly some of minority sexual inclinations, those with stitching skills, people dreaming of mythical roots, social climbers who have shaken hands with their "chief", those who think the kilt has to do with weapons or armed service, women writing racy novels about Highland hunks, genealogists, Gaelic learners, etc., etc....... And a very few very patient Scots whose patience may simply be running out. Of course it is great to have the diversity. But many members, moderators and yourself seem so easily to lose track of the reality of who started it all and what it's really all about. And there is very little can be done to increase your understanding because you are simply ... not Scots.
Alan

Ouch!,

I can feel some great animosity from your statement. In the United States most people suffer from cultural deficit disorder. When a person has lost touch with a culture that identifies them as part of a larger group they are lost. They feel an empty void without it. In the US the one thing that was uniquely American, Native culture, was nearly destroyed. Later, the hippies and newagers tried to assume Native culture without any connection through ancestry. They seemed to be reaching out for a culture to feel a part of. Some of them watered it down and wrote books that were outright lies about American Indian culture. Most American Indians decided to no longer share their culture out of fear of it being misused. The result is that most Americans now learn about native culture from less than credible sources. I see this as a disservice to the native people because what people believe about them is often a lie. I hate to see this happen to any culture.

I think that after 237 years of attempting to identify itself, there still is not an American identity. Everything we do seems to relate back to a different country of origin unless you happen to be an American Indian. I do not think we can have a true identity/culture yet since we are such a young country. I believe Scotland had the same problem early on when it had Gaelic, Pictish, Viking, and Normans all in the same country.

Therefore many hold on to their ancestor's culture to give them an identity. Unfortunately some people do not understand what the culture is like in the "real country" and believe in stereotypes from TV, books, and people. The more people believe these sources, the more watered down the culture becomes outside of Scotland. I think that people should look to the those in the country of their ancestors for guidance. I do not see how it helps to hold up a high and mighty attitude and things like you are not Scots so you can never understand. This is like my father and all his friends who went to Vietnam saying that you "You didn't go so you wouldn't know." They made sure that no one could understand them and held onto that like a badge of honor. That creates division that does not help. It makes others feel like you have no respect for them or that they are lesser than you. How about trying to help others understand rather than just creating a dividing line.

I would like to see these things continue to take place on this forum:

Members still look the real Scots for guidance on their culture.

Real Scots continue to contribute.

Members respect the guidance the real Scots give.

Members be allowed to post things about Scottish culture even if it does not pertain to the kilt. I believe this has been allowed in the correct locations. Clothing is nothing more than furniture of the mind which we use to let the world know what we represent so the culture goes hand in hand. If we do not represent the culture and the clothing correctly we are doing a disservice to our ancestors, our bothers and sisters in culture, and ourselves.

[BCAC]

The more each contributor attempts to explain themselves, the more obfuscated the point is.

This forum has rules.
The moderators are obligated to apply these rules under a very specific, now illuminated,structure.
Mr. Ashton has provided both statistical and empirical data which supports the success produced by this procedural application.

Although not black and white, this is about right and wrong.
It is right to participate freely in Mr. Ashton's forum under the pretenses he protects and espouses.
It is wrong to challenge these when they are so clearly stated, having been so long established with so effective a history.

Two items of note:
1. Mr. Newsome, Mr. MacDonald, Mr. Smith-MacPherson, among others so esteemed and previously referenced, do not participate in this manner of discourse.
2. Personally, I've yet to read a suggestion in the manner Mr. Ashton is seeking:
Rule #13...da, da, da
Rule #2.c...da, da, da
Moderator's Procedural Alteration: opens to Senior Forum Contributor's Board of Review...da, da, da
Iconography driven sub-forum threads warning of volatile content...da, da, da

Domehead

Did you read my previous posts?

I will summarise for you.

We are OK with the rules of this site. We agree with them and agree to be bound by them.

We are being over-moderated WITHIN THESE RULES!

This is driving some good members away and compelling other good members to diminue their participation here for fear of upsetting people or being percieved by a moderator as to potentially, maybe, in the future, breaking some rule or another which has not yet been broken.

[A Lenape Scot]

I think that neloon as one of the last 4 active Scots to participate in this forum was trying to enunciate the feelings of many Scots about the attempts by others, who have no knowledge, belief or interest in the traditions and soul of Scottish people, to use what is an unmistakeable national icon -the kilt as some sort of trivial item to be used in any form at a whim. This deeply held belief may come as a surprise to someone who has no personal affinity to any historical background of any significance but you may take it from me that it is not something to be regarded lightly.
If you choose to dismiss such sentiment lightly then you demonstrate a lack of any understanding of these national values.

I can understand that. I feel the same way when I see Europeans, wannabes, and Boy Scout groups "playing Indian" They don't seem to care about real American Indians, use our culture as thier play thing, and many believe we are extinct. I choose to wear the kilt correctly, learn about the traditions, history, culture, current issues, and literature of Scotland as well. I hope I am not taking the culture lightly or disrespecting it but if I do, I hope that someone speaks up so I can learn from my mistakes.

[Phil]

I can understand that. I feel the same way when I see Europeans, wannabes, and Boy Scout groups "playing Indian" They don't seem to care about real American Indians, use our culture as thier play thing, and many believe we are extinct. I choose to wear the kilt correctly, learn about the traditions, history, culture, current issues, and literature of Scotland as well. I hope I am not taking the culture lightly or disrespecting it but if I do, I hope that someone speaks up so I can learn from my mistakes.

A very insightful post, as was your previous one. Coming from a background as you describe you obviously appreciate only too well how a smaller culture becomes subsumed into a larger, more dominant one. Just like your culture, much of our Scottish
one has disappeared to be replaced by many aspects of English culture. As a result what we have left is jealously guarded and strenuously maintained and nurtured. From this you will understand our reaction when what we have left is trivialised, even mocked as some here are prone to do and just as you describe the disrespectful way your culture is so often treated. Ignorance is one excuse the perpetrators may offer as an excuse but there is a deeper and more sinister motive in action too and that is trying to suppress something you do not understand and which is somehow perceived as a threat.