Family and Universal Tartans Only?!

[auld argonian]

Although, in a way, the military is like a clan. It's certainly the only "clan" to which I have sworn loyalty.

That's why I wouldn't wear any of the military branch tartans...I'll also forgo the whole business of "wearing in honor of" some family member who served in the past. I just personally feel that I have to draw a line there; if I wasn't in that branch of the service, I should respect the solidarity of those who were by acknowledging that they are to only ones who have a right to the tartan.

Best

AA

[DWFII]

So, at one point...the poll not withstanding (which, by the way, I would vote for Tartans to which I have a connection--family, military, region, etc. + some universal)...the question comes down to what is traditional enough that we feel a need to offer up a certain amount of respect or deference?

[I'm not trying to be argumentative, either...just pursuing an interesting conversation and and equally compelling thought process.]

But I don't think we can ask that question without putting it in context. For instance, if 20 years is enough to make a tradition, then in the context of Highland history aren't we really saying that the older (truer?) traditions are of lesser value or can be dismissed in favour of the newer? (Should Auld Acquaintance be Forgot... )

If a two hundred year old tradition beginning with Wilson's and the Vestiarium Scoticum (a known hoax) is tradition enough, what does it say about the rest of the traditions and history going back to the fifth century? I mean it seems to me that you have to abandon the one to embrace the other.

And if you are willing to do that, then maybe a 20 year old tradition is valid..and poly viscose is the new worsted.

[macwilkin]

If a two hundred year old tradition beginning with Wilson's and the Vestiarium Scoticum (a known hoax) is tradition enough, what does it say about the rest of the traditions and history going back to the fifth century? I mean it seems to me that you have to abandon the one to embrace the other.

But tell me...what traditions are you talking about that go back to the fifth century?

T.

[macwilkin]

Added. I figured that may fall under the Clan and Universal option, however, I can see a difference in military.

Of course, most tartan scholars tend to agree that military tartans play a role in the development of clan tartans, aka the Government Sett...

T.

[Galb]

That's why I wouldn't wear any of the military branch tartans...I'll also forgo the whole business of "wearing in honor of" some family member who served in the past. I just personally feel that I have to draw a line there; if I wasn't in that branch of the service, I should respect the solidarity of those who were by acknowledging that they are to only ones who have a right to the tartan.

Best

AA

I agree and have the same respect towards the branches of the military. My father was a Marine. I was over at my parent's house one day and I washed my car, and did some yard work for them. Well, I had dirtied my shirt and my father tossed me one of his t-shirts. Well, he tossed me a shirt and I looked at it and asked "Can I have a different one please?" He asked me what was wrong with it. I simply replied "I haven't earned the right to wear this." It was a Marine Corps T-Shirt. He smiled and tossed me a different shirt with no military affiliation.

[Galb]

[I'm not trying to be argumentative, either...just pursuing an interesting conversation and and equally compelling thought process.]

But I don't think we can ask that question without putting it in context. For instance, if 20 years is enough to make a tradition, then in the context of Highland history aren't we really saying that the older (truer?) traditions are of lesser value or can be dismissed in favour of the newer? (Should Auld Acquaintance be Forgot... )

If a two hundred year old tradition beginning with Wilson's and the Vestiarium Scoticum (a known hoax) is tradition enough, what does it say about the rest of the traditions and history going back to the fifth century? I mean it seems to me that you have to abandon the one to embrace the other.

And if you are willing to do that, then maybe a 20 year old tradition is valid..and poly viscose is the new worsted.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a hoax. As a previous poster had mentioned, it was backed by the clan chiefs by them sending in the information requested, or at that time choosing (whether they chose or let someone else choose) a tartan. Things change over time, like as you mentioned PV in favor of wool. To me, honestly, material matters very little. It is the design and the affiliation that makes a difference to me. Getting back to the point, it seemed like a widely embraced act of choosing clan tartans, and it has continued to be embraced for almost 200 years. I think that is what matters the most, the fact that it was embraced and continues to be.

[DWFII]

But tell me...what traditions are you talking about that go back to the fifth century?

T.

OK, that was misleading...but not deliberately so. Nevertheless, I apologize. I was thinking about my own families history (which supposedly goes back to the 5th century) and seem to remember reading somewhere that there were people (clans?) in the Highlands that far back.

My point, though, was that there are traditions relating to Scotland and the Highlands that are older than the early 19th century. Tartan remnants have been dated to the 4th century, and the feilidh-mhor dates to the 16th century. And the feilidh-beag comes in in the early 18th century...before Culloden, certainly. All before any known association of tartans to clans. And this was the state of things all the way up to about 1815.

It wasn't until the early and mid 19th century that the notion of clan tartans even came up. Indeed, it wasn't until the Sobieski brothers published the Vestarium Scotium (which, BTW, was later proven to be a hoax) that the idea of clan tartans became widely accepted.

And that raises a further question...can a tradition based upon romantic nonsense and a perpetrated hoax even be considered a "tradition?"

If I can be so bold as to quote (and suggest further reading ) from Matt Newsome's very interesting essay at http://albanach.org/sources.htm, it may shed some light on what I've been trying to get at here.

We don’t really know the answer to that question, but several factors come into play. First of all, the uprising of 1745 was a distant memory, and was already starting to be romanticized. The government no longer feared a rebellion from the north, so interest in Highland Scotland was now “safe” to pursue. The Highlands were beginning to attract tourists. The plight of the Highlanders during and after the Clearances (both those who left and those who remained) had taken hold in the public conscience. Lowlanders no longer feared association with “those barbaric Highlanders” and since the tartan industry had effectively moved into the Lowlands during Proscription, tartan was now seen as “pan-Scottish.” Take all that into account with the formation of the first Highland Societies in Scotland and England, intent on reviving Highland culture (or their version of it), and all the ingredients are in place. The idea was at this time just starting to gel that the names born by the tartans represented an actual association with the clan. The fact that people knew so little information about this supposed clan tartan system was seen to be a result of suppression. In an attempt to “preserve” what he thought was an original clan tartan system before it was lost, in 1815 Col. Alasdair MacDonell of Glengarry began to urge all of the clan chiefs to submit a sample of their authentic tartan to the Highland Society of London.
This, of course, threw many clan chiefs into a tizzy, who by and large had no idea of what their “clan tartan” was supposed to be, nor had ever given it much thought. Many of these chiefs were just as ignorant of history as anyone else, and if enough people insisted that they once had a clan tartan, who were they to argue? The chief of the Robertson Clan set about asking all the older men in Atholl what the true clan tartan was. Many claimed they knew, but they all suggested different designs! The tartan ultimately submitted by the chief to the Highland Society is what we know today as Hunting Robertson, which was the tartan originally worn by the Loyal Clan Donnachie Volunteers (a kind of home guard) raised in 1803. Like most military tartans, it is based on the blue, green and black “government sett” – the Black Watch tartan – with colored stripes added.
It would seem that many chiefs simply wrote to the main supplier of tartan cloth, Wilsons of Bannockburn, asking them to send out a sample of “their” clan tartan. Looking back through Wilsons’ pattern books can unveil amusing stories regarding many of these “authentic” clan tartans’ origins. Perhaps most illustrative is the tartan that began life simply as “No. 43” in Wilsons’ record books.



Anyway...we're probably flogging a dead horse here but I have to agree with a previous poster who suggested that it's just fine to choose a clan tartan as long as you recognize the inherent historical contradictions and don't delude yourself.

[IrishGodfather]

I bought a Universal tartan as my first kilt, b/c although I'm of the Fraser clan, I really didn't like the tartan as much as the universal I bought. But I will wear universals and my clan kilt, and I hope to get come Irish county kilts and an Irish national. But I don't think I want any other clan tartans that I'm not associated with.

I need to finish my family tree so I know what other clans I'm related to. Problem is I have so many Irish in my family, and only my father's father's side is Scottish.

[michaelbeeman]

I have 4 traditional style kilts and 10 moderns. I have a tank in the Crawford Muted, moms family (and a Crawford Modern Box Pleat on order from Matt Newsome). A Irish National and a Saffron, for my fathers family, and a SWK Heavyweight Green "Shadow" fashion tartan. I tend to stick to tartans with a connection. My next kilt will be a US Army tartan, as someone else said, the only "Clan" I've sworn Loyalty to, as well. I have connections to the Robertson Clan, as well as familial connections to Brittany, and will get kilts to honor those connections. I have enough on my list for now, however, I will at some point start acquiring kilts in tartans I do not have a connection to, but like the tartans.

[Daibhidh O'Baoighill]

Of course, most tartan scholars tend to agree that military tartans play a role in the development of clan tartans, aka the Government Sett...

T.

Here is an interesting twist on your post. Rather than clan tartans owing to military tartans, the 79th owes to the MacDonald tartan.

"The 79th (Cameron of Erracht) Tartan was unique among Scottish Regiments owing to the fact that it was not derived from the 42nd Government (Black Watch) Tartan. It was created by taking the Macdonald sett, omitting three red lines, and imposing the yellow line of clan Cameron. "
http://www.eldonspecialties.com/df/camerons/tartan.htm