Time for a New York State tartan?

[Brian K]

For these HONY's, I like the original "bluish" blue better than the "purplish" blue. Amble's pic isn't showing up, but I doubt if I'd care for a white overstripe.

Honestly, I still like the original muted version with the brown and gray best, but will defer to the majority...!

Thanks, Brian, I appreciate the compliment. I do, however, like the idea of having a "regular" and a hunting tartan more and more. There are millions of people in our great state and why should we not offer a choice?

Amble asked me to post her design with a white stripe:



Bear in mind Amble's warning about designs with more than 6 colors. She has ordered cloth recently and full well knows the upcharges. For 7 colors it's just as much as if you order s design with a special color. It might not be a good idea to ensure that our design is, by default, more expensive than other cloth.

I hesitate to show it here, but another option for white would be to substitute white for another color altogether and make a dress or dance type tartan. I chose to use white in place of green because when it snows here most of the green disappears . When you see it you'll understand why I hesitate - white is a hard color to work with in a tartan!



We have more food for thought!

[Wompet]

For these HONY's, I like the original "bluish" blue better than the "purplish" blue. Amble's pic isn't showing up, but I doubt if I'd care for a white overstripe.

Honestly, I still like the original muted version with the brown and gray best, but will defer to the majority...!

I'll second what Brian said above, except that now that we can see the design I can definitively say that the white overstripe doesn't work for me. It feels like it's fighting with the yellow overstripe, if that makes sense.

Thanks, Brian, I appreciate the compliment. I do, however, like the idea of having a "regular" and a hunting tartan more and more. There are millions of people in our great state and why should we not offer a choice?
...
I hesitate to show it here, but another option for white would be to substitute white for another color altogether and make a dress or dance type tartan. I chose to use white in place of green because when it snows here most of the green disappears . When you see it you'll understand why I hesitate - white is a hard color to work with in a tartan!



We have more food for thought!

Since the hunting tartans are defined as having cooler colors (e.g. greens and blues) in the undercheck, any of the previous HoNY designs would be considered "Hunting" by default.
The white substituted works well as the "Dress HoNY" or "HoNY in Winter."

[Bob C]

I'm with Woodsheal. I don't like the purplish blue. I would also say the white stripe does not work at all.

I also think we should settle on one tartan.

[Brian K]

I'll second what Brian said above, except that now that we can see the design I can definitively say that the white overstripe doesn't work for me. It feels like it's fighting with the yellow overstripe, if that makes sense.

Since the hunting tartans are defined as having cooler colors (e.g. greens and blues) in the undercheck, any of the previous HoNY designs would be considered "Hunting" by default.
The white substituted works well as the "Dress HoNY" or "HoNY in Winter."

Thanks, Wompet and Brian for the feedback. I think we might (MIGHT, mind you) be coming to some sort of consensus around HONY 1a, but instead of using Illinois Navy for the darker blue, revert to the original blue, which was, I think, Denim Blue (almost a dark grey, actually).

As to the idea of a hunting tartan, my understanding has always been that a hunting tartan contains earthier colors to blend in with the natural surroundings better than brighter/darker colors. If I do say so myself, I think my original is closer to a traditional hunting type tartan then the others. YMMV

In any event, I'm even less certain about what the feeling about trying to have more than one tartan approved. I still like the idea of an official "regular (technically a district tartan in this case, I suppose) and an official hunting tartan approved. It sounds like Wompet likes the idea of an official dress/winter tartan.

What's the best way for us to sort all this out?

BTW, This is one of the more active threads I've been in recently and I've had fun with it. I hope others have enjoyed it also. If anyone knows other New Yorkers who might like to chime in here, please encourage them to do so. Designing something by committee, so to speak, is tough and I want to thank everyone for their input, their patience and their willingness to compromise. I think we're going to end up with something(s?) nice to propose.

Regards,

Brian

[Kilted Jeeper]

Wow, I go away for a few days and you guys are really coming up with some great stuff. I think I need to throw my vote in with the 1a!

[blackbeard]

I totally agree with Cajunscot
It took quite a team to get the California tartan bill through the legislature in 2001.

Registered supporters of the bill included:
Saint Andrew's Society of Los Angeles, Inc.
Dixon Scottish Cultural Association
St. Andrews Society of Southern California
City of Upland
Clan MacLeod Society, USA, Inc., Pacific Region
The Scottish Society of Central California
House of Gordon, United States Branch and California Division
Scottish Clan and Tartan Information Center
United Scottish Society, Inc.
Caledonian Club of Sacramento, Inc.
Caledonian Club of San Francisco, Inc.
Clan Steward Society
Clan Morrison Society of North America
Petitions were passed at highland games around the state and over 7,500 signatures were gathered.

It probably didn't hurt that the Assembly had several Campbells, a McPherson, a Dickerson, a Thomson, a couple of Matthews, and a McLeod to author the bill.
It also took a couple of tries to get it to the floor (although when it did; it passed unanimously).

I think another help in getting it passed was the language of the bill...
(b) The oppression of Scots included the Dress Act of 1747, which was suppressive legislation that forbade wearing the kilt, playing the bagpipe, or even displaying a swatch of tartan. The penalty for breaking this law was six months in jail on the first offense, and on the second offense deportation to the colonies in America or Australia for seven years of indentured labor.
(c) The tartan is a symbol of Scottish courage in the face of adversity, of loyalty to family and friend, and of the human qualities of perseverance in a just cause and strength in the resolve that freedom is for the many, not the few, which may serve as a continuing inspiration for all people today.
(d) California is the most culturally diverse state in the nation. Californians of Scottish, Scots-Irish, and other Celtic descent have made major contributions to the history and development of the state.
(e) The state's natural splendor and history have been symbolized in the pattern and colors of the California Tartan sett based on the family tartan of the revered John Muir...

So the adoption of a state tartan could be seen as a symbol of the people and not just a pretty woven fabric.

Good luck and don't give up!

[Brian K]

Thanks, Blackbeard. I appreciate your sharing this interesting information about the process in California.

Regards,

Brian

[AFS1970]

Being from Connecticut, I also have no horse in this race, my only New York connection is that my wife grew up in New York City and there is already a city tartan. However, I posted a bit about this in the other thread on state tartans. When approaching the various Scottish cultural organizations be prepared for some or all of them not to support you. Although you have done a much better process than happened in CT.

I was an active member of the St. Andrew's Society of CT when our state tartan was being moved through the legislature. We were contacted about the issue and ended up writing a letter against adoption. The tartan in question eventually did get adopted. As I remember the issues were that it had been designed as window treatment for a state building, possibly a school. It had not been designed using any of the historical conventions as far as colors or meaning, instead just taking all the colors in our state flag and arranging stripes of them. I do not believe that it was registered with the STA, although it may have been by now, there was some question as to weather it was compliant with some standard. My memory of the events is likely not all that clear, as it was not a major issue for us, but one we did oppose.

When and if you do present one or more of these designs to the various organizations, make sure you say why you picked the colors you did. Even if they have new meanings to them, be able to explain what they mean in the context of this tartan. I think that is one main thing that was missing from the method used in CT.

[Brian K]

Being from Connecticut, I also have no horse in this race, my only New York connection is that my wife grew up in New York City and there is already a city tartan. However, I posted a bit about this in the other thread on state tartans. When approaching the various Scottish cultural organizations be prepared for some or all of them not to support you. Although you have done a much better process than happened in CT.

I was an active member of the St. Andrew's Society of CT when our state tartan was being moved through the legislature. We were contacted about the issue and ended up writing a letter against adoption. The tartan in question eventually did get adopted. As I remember the issues were that it had been designed as window treatment for a state building, possibly a school. It had not been designed using any of the historical conventions as far as colors or meaning, instead just taking all the colors in our state flag and arranging stripes of them. I do not believe that it was registered with the STA, although it may have been by now, there was some question as to weather it was compliant with some standard. My memory of the events is likely not all that clear, as it was not a major issue for us, but one we did oppose.

When and if you do present one or more of these designs to the various organizations, make sure you say why you picked the colors you did. Even if they have new meanings to them, be able to explain what they mean in the context of this tartan. I think that is one main thing that was missing from the method used in CT.

Thanks for the compliment about our process so far. We've only taken the first few steps of what is likely to be a long journey. It's nice to have confirmation of a good start.

As far as "historic conventions' for designing tartans, I think there is a modern misconception about that. Today I think it's common for people who design tartans, or those who have them designed, to assign a particular meaning to each color in the sett. I did this in my OP, but it was more important that the colors work together than that there be any particular shade of any particular color. The design of mine that Amble picked to tweak for our purposes is one she really liked because of my color choices - when I designed it I just picked colors I liked and it was designed two weeks before we even had this idea. It was a lucky happenstance that it fit in with what we wanted to do.

Originally, before tartans were associated with clans or districts, setts were created by weavers from color combinations and arrangements the weaver found pleasing. After the repeal of the Disarming Acts, when tartan began its resurgence, many clans created a tartan by adding a red, white or gold stripe (or two or all three of these colors) to the Government Sett (Black Watch sett) which many clansmen had worn in government service. Other clans picked a sett which was produced by a weaver in their area and some just had them created because the Chief liked the colors. Our ancestors would have thought the idea of meanings in the colors of the sett an odd one.

I'm not opposed to identifying why certain colors have been chosen - and I know people will ask why these choices were made - but the important thing is do they look good together. I'm not fond of the Connecticut tartan myself, but it's not the colors, it's the fact that it's asymmetrical, which can give a kilt maker fits.

Here is a link to an article by Matt Newsome on symbolism in historic tartan design in which the idea of the meaning of colors is discussed: http://www.albanach.org/tartan_symbolism.htm

Regards,

Brian

[Bob C]

Being from Connecticut, I also have no horse in this race, my only New York connection is that my wife grew up in New York City and there is already a city tartan. However, I posted a bit about this in the other thread on state tartans. When approaching the various Scottish cultural organizations be prepared for some or all of them not to support you. Although you have done a much better process than happened in CT.

I was an active member of the St. Andrew's Society of CT when our state tartan was being moved through the legislature. We were contacted about the issue and ended up writing a letter against adoption. The tartan in question eventually did get adopted. As I remember the issues were that it had been designed as window treatment for a state building, possibly a school. It had not been designed using any of the historical conventions as far as colors or meaning, instead just taking all the colors in our state flag and arranging stripes of them. I do not believe that it was registered with the STA, although it may have been by now, there was some question as to weather it was compliant with some standard. My memory of the events is likely not all that clear, as it was not a major issue for us, but one we did oppose.

When and if you do present one or more of these designs to the various organizations, make sure you say why you picked the colors you did. Even if they have new meanings to them, be able to explain what they mean in the context of this tartan. I think that is one main thing that was missing from the method used in CT.

This illustrates my point perfectly. Every group you take this to is going to say, "No, this won't do. Our idea is better." Nothing will get done.