very surprised at the reaction at church.

[grizzbass]

thanks. I have appreciated eveyones replies. I understand what you and others are saying. My son always goes in white shirt and tie so that wasn't the problem. I am active and have been my whole life. I'll admit things aren't like when I was young (but then again what is). I worked for the church and that definately gave me a different prospective between the "gospel" and the "church". and maybe that is in play here as it colors my relationship with him. I believe in a post I mentioned my older son has had problems with the others in the ward. They don't like his independence. He is also trying to figure out who he is and at 16 is well 16. He isn't rebelling but sometimes I understand why my dad use to roll his eyes when I'd talk. I think the bishop is responding to all of this (as well as the fact his own son rebelled). I was just interested if others had had similiar experiences. I've always thought of the kilt as special. The idea that it is like a sweat shirt or ball cap or something negative was really out of right field to me.
The only thing that upsets me is personally is A. his decision is based in ignorance but isn't open to review B. he hurt my sons feelings and C. (and the thing that really got under my skin) giving him a blessing without my permission. What he said was wrong. Trying to give it an eclesiastic stamp with a blessing irks me. I know he views it as just trying to help him understand but that doesn't excuse it to me.
I should also say that haveing been in a bishopic I do understand the huge work load/pressures/etc on a bishop. I also understand the temptation to go over the line and preach/administer trying to stamp your personal beliefs and thoughts with the authority of god rather than just your best, especially since we are talking about untrained nonprofessional clergy. Actually many members often want and expect that "security" and that increases the problem.
Again thanks for the thoughts, both yours and the many others here. It seems a nice community.

[Graham]

Nice thread, I've been wearing a kilt to church for seven years, incl. preaching in one. I've never had a negative reaction, if some look a bit strangely at me i tell them that the first garment given to man was a leather kilt (but not one of Roberts).

[davidlpope]

If the young man's self expression is more important to him than the congregation with which he worships, he might consider seeking out a different congregation. If the congregation is more important, he should consider trying to change the attitudes from with in.

Chris,

I want to say kudos to you for this so eloquently summing up what I've been thinking for a while when these sorts of issues come up.

Often I run across threads similar to this where the poster is frustrated that a particular organization or group isn't allowing him/her to do/wear/say a certain thing.

Unfortunately, most of the advice given to the individual seems to be an blurb about how "I wouldn't let anyone tell me what to do, I just do whatever I want." While this may be satisfying to type from a keyboard on an internet forum, it hardly helps the individual seeking the advice.

You've managed to sum up the reality of the situation- either 1) continue to associate with the group/organization and try to bring about positive change or 2) end your association with them.

Cordially,

David

[Zardoz]

“Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.”
- Steve Jobs

"It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master."
- Ayn Rand

[Alan H]

grizzbass I don't think I have much more to add to what's already been said regarding your son wearing a kilt to church. I do it all the time, but whatever.

No, what I'd like to say here is that I admire your reasonable outlook, your understanding of different perspectives on the issue, your respect for the workload and obligations that your bishop is handling, and at the same time, your conviction that you, too, have rights and opinions, as does your son.

Regarding 16 year olds doing a bit of rebelling. Uh........ Gee. Gosh. That's NEVER happened before in the entire history of the human race!

I think it's most likely that your kids are just *Fine*. You, and they will find a way that makes sense for you all.

Carry on, mate.

[grizzbass]

thanks. about the 16 year old. I guess trying to be funny didn't make my thought clear. He hasn't rebelled just occasionally does things without thinking them through. (if that's the proper way to say it) I know when I was that age while my grades say I was really intelligent but some of the things I said or did say something different.
I am really proud of my sons ( my daughters equally) I and my sons spend about an hour a day each together. After I do my workout I coach them both seperately in powerlifting. So we have alot of time to communicate.
It also helps their strength. The 16 year old, at 165 pounds, in touriment has deadlifted 406 pounds, squatted 303 pounds and benched pressed 186 pounds. The younger is to young to go heavy but can rep 115 pounds 20 times in the deadlift and squat and is at 60 pounds for the bench. The oldest would like to start the scottish games soon. My only problem with that is I've never done it so it will be a learning experience for us both and more importantly not sure where we can practise. My back lawn is only about 20 yards long and I'm pretty sure the neigbors will object to big rocks, hammers, and logs flying around. Okay kid brag over

[Nighthawk]

Chris,

I want to say kudos to you for this so eloquently summing up what I've been thinking for a while when these sorts of issues come up.

Often I run across threads similar to this where the poster is frustrated that a particular organization or group isn't allowing him/her to do/wear/say a certain thing.

Unfortunately, most of the advice given to the individual seems to be an blurb about how "I wouldn't let anyone tell me what to do, I just do whatever I want." While this may be satisfying to type from a keyboard on an internet forum, it hardly helps the individual seeking the advice.

You've managed to sum up the reality of the situation- either 1) continue to associate with the group/organization and try to bring about positive change or 2) end your association with them.

Cordially,

David

No sir. You are quite incorrect. The advice is NOT about "I wouldn't let anyone tell me what to do, I just do whatever I want." It's about "I wouldn't let anyone unreasonably dominate me, I deserve some basic respect and freedoms." If I get a job in a factory setting, for example, and am told not to wear my kilt, that's reasonable. It's a safety concern. Being told that I can't wear my $800 family tartan tank to church because it's the same as wearing sweats and a baseball hat? Are you freakin' kidding me?!?! That's not a reasonable request- that's a slap in the face to my ancestry! The priest at my mother's church actually gave a whole sermon on the whole church approriate clothing issue a few months back. He mentioned that if you were invited to dinner at the governors house, you wouldn't go dressed in jeans and a wrinkled t shirt, so when you're in the house of God, it's even less appropriate! He pointed to me with a sly smile and said "The pagan over there is dressed better than a lot of people I see!" You'd dress to the occasion. Wearing my nice tank is being dressed to the occasion. That's the issue. An unwillingness to listen to your congregation is also at issue. If you are so closed minded that you can't listen to, and can only preach at, your following, then there's something wrong.

[davidlpope]

It's about "I wouldn't let anyone unreasonably dominate me, I deserve some basic respect and freedoms."

Sounds great... What form does this take, though, in a practical sense? Picket during the service? Hold a silent vigil in your kilt outside the sanctuary? Write a letter to the local newspaper editor?

I still think you're left with two realistic options when it comes to membership in an organization (as opposed to dealing with legally protected rights and freedoms): Either 1) try to work constructively, from the inside, for change, or 2) decide to no longer associate yourself with the organization.

Perhaps on this one we'll amiably disagree.

David

[beloitpiper]

You could always become an atheist and not care what people think! It feels great!

[macwilkin]

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