The OUTRAGEOUS Price of kilts!

[Archangel]

These "Cheepo Kilts" are made by folks with a lot of talent and a long history of being under British rule and having kilted troops and pipe bands stationed there for many many years and only gain their independence in 1947+-.
Don't think they woke up one morning and said "HEY LETS MAKE KILTS"
Many Pakistani's served in The British Army.

And did not the UK just award a contract to a company in Pakistan to make Kilts for the Military.

That was the original plan, it's been changed to Scottish Kiltmakers.

Your other points are good. My grandfather spent a good part of his life in India, as a Scot in the British Army, helping make it a place where people could earn their bread and butter.

From here the conversation will move to the balance between Free Trade and Protectionism. Probably not where the mods want it to go. Fair enough.

A well made kilt, of good material, is worth every penny and I haven't heard anybody say a price that is unreasonable here.

[emolas]

Comparing the custom kilts to the inexpensive ones is like comparing the price and quality difference between a mass-produced assembly line automobile and a hand-made Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren.

I'm sure everyone would just love to have a McLaren but the money just isn't there for some people so we have to settle for a less luxurious vehicle. Additionally, the McLaren would not be as practical to drive down a dirt road to your favorite fishing spot. While I don't see myself ever owning a McLaren... I will be getting at least one expensive, hand-made, heavyweight wool kilt. When I do get them I will only wear them for special occasions. For general use I will continue to use cheaper kilts of lower quality and workmanship simply because they are more disposable.
Both types of kilts have their uses and comparing them to each other is pointless.

[canawler]

BTW, you CAN own a really superb wool, tailored-to-fit-you kilt. There are two ways to do it.

1. pay for it.

2. learn how to make it yourself.

If I can do it, ANYBODY can do it. I ain't nobody special.

Sorry for the highjack but this sort of goes to the whole point of why handsewn kilts are expensive. NOT just anybody can do it. At least not to decent quality standards. It takes natural talent and time to develop those skills.

I find it fustrating to keep reading posts saying that anyone can make a kilt. I know you really believe this is true but I, for one, definitely couldn't make a kilt.

I could afford a sewing machine but have no place to put one and absolutely no idea how to use one. I have literally never sewn a stitch in my life. If I had to sew on a button that had popped off, I wouldn't have a clue where to start. I also don't have the time required to learn how to sew not to mention the time required to sew something as complicated as a kilt. I have read your x-kilt instructions, and while they are written very well, they still work on the assumption that the reader can sew and knows the terminology involved. I don't, so I got lost quickly.

Being very self critical, I tend to be hesitant to spend the time and money on something I know I won't enjoy because I won't be happy with the quality of my own work. Everyone's got different talents and abilities...sewing isn't one of mine. It makes me more appreciative of those, like yourself, who are talented at sewing.

[Raptor]

Well said Allan! I like a bargain as much as the next guy, but the reality is if you want the quality, you're going to have to pay for it. I'd like to see cheaper tartan out there, but as mentioned, there are valid reasons why it costs. Bottom line, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

[Alan H]

Sorry for the highjack but this sort of goes to the whole point of why handsewn kilts are expensive. NOT just anybody can do it. At least not to decent quality standards. It takes natural talent and time to develop those skills.

I find it fustrating to keep reading posts saying that anyone can make a kilt. I know you really believe this is true but I, for one, definitely couldn't make a kilt.

I could afford a sewing machine but have no place to put one and absolutely no idea how to use one. I have literally never sewn a stitch in my life. If I had to sew on a button that had popped off, I wouldn't have a clue where to start. I also don't have the time required to learn how to sew not to mention the time required to sew something as complicated as a kilt. I have read your x-kilt instructions, and while they are written very well, they still work on the assumption that the reader can sew and knows the terminology involved. I don't, so I got lost quickly.

Being very self critical, I tend to be hesitant to spend the time and money on something I know I won't enjoy because I won't be happy with the quality of my own work. Everyone's got different talents and abilities...sewing isn't one of mine. It makes me more appreciative of those, like yourself, who are talented at sewing.

Here's the thing... I didn't know how to drive a car, once, huh? I didn't know how to weld, either...or sail, or do any number of things. But I learned those skills, at least to some degree.

If I learned, you can, too.

Now, whether you have the physical space to store a sewing machine is another question....and a valid one, of course. However, whether you want to learn those sewing skills is different question. Learning the skills takes time, and in large part, I think, masses of time (and doing stuff over and over again) replaces actual skill. A duffer (and when it comes to sewing, I'm a duffer) can get reasonable results by just keeping at it. The questions is, is it worth it to you to invest the time?

I mean, maybe you'd rather go golfing, or watch TV or do metalwork, or hang out with your wife or any number of great things other than learn to sew. That's fair...it's a matter of priorities. You invest your time where you value it. It may not be worth it to you to put in hours and hours and hours of work, just to learn how to do a running stitch and then how to thread a sewing machine when you could be going to work and making money, and then spending that money on a wondrful custom-made kilt.

Hey, I'm not really sewing right now 'cause I'm sailing, and also throwing at Highland Games. It's a priorities thing.

BTW, you can make an absolutely drop-dead traditional kilt without touching a sewing machine. It'll take longer, but you will get there. My first wool kilt was made like that. I'm wearing it right now.

[Kilted-Marine]

I think the thing that gets me is that many think the "quality" of the lower cost kilts is not there. The reason the Poly/Viscose kilts from pakistan are less expensive is because of the material and the cost of labor.
It is not as if you wear them three times and they fall apart. (Somebody on the braveheart/Kiltmen forumn purchase one of our 13 oz PV kilts and said the first thing they did was wash it 25 times) I am sure many of you have them and can confirm that they hold together well and are put together professionally.
Why do $400 kilt cost $400. Because of material and cost of labor.
We have done several Custom made kilts in PV in sizes ranging from 52" waist to 26" waist with drops from 26 - 18. We give the weaver waist, hip, and drop requirements (drop to us means top to botom///IE length) and to date we have had nothing but rav reviews for the workmenship.

From 10 feet away a person would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the two.

Anyway.. agian I think everybody that is scottish should own a kilt and proudly wear it. For those that can afford a wool...I said cheers and well done, to those that can't...then look at us (the Frugal Corner), Stillwater, or another seller that deals with the nicer economy kilts.

The Marines second motto is - "We have done so much, with so little, for so long, WE CAN DO ANYTHING WITH NOTHING"

[ronstew]

I, for one, definitely couldn't make a kilt.

Me neither. I say that in the same same sense that I confidently state that I will never win the lottery jackpot. Sure, I suppose I could, in theory, learn how to do it, but the practical reality is that I would get frustrated and quit before I finished making a kilt.

[Pour1Malt]

Folks consider this a warning shot.

I have found this thread to be really interesting and it makes me appreciate my handsewn kilts all the more. Kudos to all of X Marks the Scot's skilled Kiltmakers.

But understanding how a quality handmade kilt is sewn and appreciating the costs involved in terms of materials and labor does not neccesarily mean we need to bash kilts that are manufactured elsewhere. Such as:

ai have said several times oan this board-

ya get whit ya pay fur!

ai have nay interest in supportin' oiny kind o' thirdworld sweatshop that makes a cheepo kilt...

ai happily pay the REAL price o' a kilt tae my local Scottish kiltmaker...

And I have said several times on this board that many a kilt wearer would never have ordered his first handmade "tank" had it not been for the reasonably priced alternatives available to see if they liked wearing one.

Is anything manufactured in a factory going to hold up in a comparison to a handsewn kilt? Of course not.

But if the only option was a $500 to 600 kilt and another $500-600 in accessories then there would be a lot less people on this forum.

Consider that perhaps a lot of people here just can't afford that kind of money. Maybe someday, but not for a while. Do you wish to deny them the experience of wearing Highland Garb? Should kilts be only for the wealthy?

There is a place on X Marks the Scot for all kinds of kilts and kilt wearers.

Let's be respectful to all.

Cheers

Jamie

dae ya REALLY think ai have tae bae respectful tae sweatshops?

ai willnae...

ai stand by whit ai said- ya get whit ya pay fur...

this threid started as a way tae explain why kilts cost whit they dae...

and ai am agreein' wi' Alan H.... kiltmakers charge a fair an reasonable price....

ai will NAY support sweatshops... an' ai'm shocked ya wuid ask me tae, Jamie...

[The Wizard of BC]

I think I'll add some thoughts to this thread. They may not be valuable or mean anything, they are just random thoughts that occurred as I read this entire thread.

To those who think they can't sew - Heck guys, I can't really sew either. I just wanted something enough to try to get it the only way open to me at the time. I wish I were a trained tailor with a wealth of experience behind me but I'm just a guy that wanted to make a kilt.
If you don't have space for a sewing machine don't sweat it. Barb is known to sew a kilt on an airplane, and riding in a car. Heck, I'll bet she has even sewn one in a tent on some rock strewn field.
Me, I'm just too stubborn to quit. So I overbuild. I make mistakes. Lot's of mistakes. The mistakes line the walls of my shop and can never be sold. So I use them to show the fabric colors to my customers, but I can never let them look too close because I'm embarrassed about how bad they are.

When I started to make kilts I said I wouldn't do Tartans. But no one else is doing Wool Tartan Traditional looking kilts with pockets. And my customers were asking for them. They were pleading with me to do them. So I now make a Tartan Dress Model Freedom Kilt. And you know what, my customers are shocked every time when I add up the difference in price for the fabric. I include the price of my stock fabrics in the price of the kilt but with Tartans I charge a flat rate for the kilt, and then have to add the cost of ordering the Tartan. You should see the look glaze over the eyes of a guy who is really dreaming of a kilt is his families Tartan when I tell him "You can have this solid color kilt for $285.00 or this exact same kilt in Tartan for $285.00 + $360.00."
I hate that part of my business.

I haven't yet toured the mills in Scotland and England but I've been to Fraser & Kirkbright. I've seen his mill in a real shady part of town with the 30 and 40 year old looms that he is holding together with safety wire and a prayer. I've seen the result of someone else's mistake which nearly cost him his business. So I know he is not getting rich at my or my customers expense.
Look at it this way - 1 kilts worth of 13oz Tartan, 60inches wide x 4yards long, with 37 threads per inch = 25,012 yards of yarn!!! In sometimes six or seven different colors.
Next time you pass a yarn store walk in and ask to buy 25,012 yarns of hard twisted, worsted Wool. I'd love to see the look on the sales persons face. I'll bet you they don't have that much in the whole store.
Now you ask Gordon to stock every color of yarn for every single Tartan ever invented in 11, 13, & 16oz. Wool, 11,13 & 16oz. P/V and then just wait for some one to order 1 - 4 yard length and then complain about the price.
Then let's imagine he does get an order but has run out of the exact color needed for that Tartan, so he calls his yarn supplier and the response he gets is "I'm sorry Sir, but it's not economical to spin less than 100,000 yards of that color."

This thread started out talking about the price of Wool Traditional Kilts and somehow went off on a tangent about less expensive kilts.
Here are some of my thoughts. Not all of them, because sometimes I get a little hot under the collar on this subject.

Now I'm going to step up on the soap box for a while. Mods, if I'm out of line please delete just this post but leave the rest of this thread because it's a good one.

Can't afford a tank? ok. Buy what you can afford. Or use a little trick I use. Every night as I empty my pockets I take whatever change I find and drop it in a moose shaped "piggy bank" my wife gave me. I'm always surprised when I open that thing how much change left over from buying coffee it can hold. Guess what, I bought an authentic Tewksbury tank that way.

I may not like the product sold by another kiltmaker or vendor. They may not like an FK. But like the last thing Steven V. and I said to each other over a friendly cup of coffee, "We have the right to agree to disagree".
Read the review I wrote about a week ago of the Stillwater I bought. There are things I liked about it and things I didn't. And I said so honestly and openly. And if Jerry wants to review one of my kilts I would accept his order and make and ship his kilt just like every other one I make. And thank him for his review. Good, bad or indifferent, as long as it is honest

Let's face it. Kilts are becoming more popular. We are getting the message out. The media is noticing.
Some kilt wearers want very high quality. Some only want low price. Some don't know or don't care. And some just want girls to ask them "the question".

So what makes me mad about how this thread went sideways?

What irks me is what seems like the blatant misrepresentations which are used by some companies who are jumping on the bandwagon we are creating. And it is unfortunate that some of those companies are selling items made in Pakistan. Steal a photo from another persons website, not be honest and forthright about where your product is made or what the content of the fabric is, is to me dishonest.
Post on your site that you carry 13 oz Poly/Viscous fabric when every kiltmaker in the world knows that is probably not true. We're all waiting for the first mill to offer it. State that your kilts are 16 oz heavywight but when compared side by side with a kilt of a known fabric actually come in at half the weight of even 10.5oz fabric.
It's these companies that make it so hard for Stillwater and Frugal Corner to get a fair shake here on this forum.
The kind of company that has proven time and time again that an uninformed, starry-eyed, Mel Gibson wanna-be will buy the first kilt he comes across for $80.00 and walk away thinking he got a deal because the shop next door is charging $500.00 for a kilt with almost the exact same colors in it.

And guess what? Everyone of you could do the same thing. I'll give you the address of the company that makes the things. You don't need a sewing machine, don't need a store, rent, employees, sewing skills or anything but a slick website and an e-bay account.
Your website is your entire operation. And real kiltmakers like Rocky have already done the work for you, just lift the photos of his wonderful kilts right off his site. He can't sue you because you don't list an address. And the phone number you do list is a cell phone. And when he calls you just say something like "Oh, I'm sorry, the web guy must have done that, I'll call him and get those taken right off." Then you can laugh at him as you hang up the phone.
All this because you know from experience that in another ten minutes some one else will call you to give you their money. And all you need to do is assure him that "Yes, indeed, I have that kilt in stock. I'll make sure it's in the mail to you today. May I have your credit card number please?"
Then all you need to do is sit back and read post on forums like this about how good your customer service is how low your prices are and how everyone should take you up on the great deals you offer.

I don't blame Frugal Corner one bit for getting a little miffed a couple of posts ago. He is bearing the brunt of others poor business ethic. I don't blame him a bit for saying things like "For some-only a hand made- wool kilt- made in scotland by little old scottish gentlemen in their 80's will do. But for us huddled masses dreaming of the freedom of a Kilt and a lower cost way to show our Scottish pride, thank God we can always turn to those old subjects of the crown who have decided to offer us an alternative to the costly and itchy wool kilts that are forefathers were burdened with.

So give us your poor, your huddled Scots, Those that labor hard for every dollar and have families to feed and taxes to pay, Those crying out for an affordable kilt that they can wear to the games with pride or change the oil in the cars... We shall cloth them in the brightest or tartan colors for about 20% of what they would pay for a handcrafted one from the scottish shops that are air conditioned houses of luxury.

Just tit-for-tat with what some of you have said and implied about him.

So lets everyone put some salve on their bruised egos, remember that "taking the moral high ground" is only good for when your in court or running for election and return this thread back to the original intent of this thread.

It takes me 3 - 8 hour days to make one of my kilts. The pockets alone are one day.
Could I do it faster? Probably. But I couldn't keep up the pace for long, I'm old and addicted to nicotine and caffeine and reading X Marks.
Could I do it cheaper? Possibly. But I'm also addicted to producing the highest quality I am capable of.
Could I offer the world's best customer service? Well, I'm sorry. If you want a Freedom Kilt your just going to have to put up with a crabby old fart who just happens to love this business we call kilts.

[mddock58]

Steve - You said a mouthful! and quite well too.

And you're not crabby, just highly focused!

This thread has started to move WAAAY off what it started.

I have seen the work done by Rocky, Steve, and Barb, and one day I will own a kilt made by them. Right now I have some of F & K's fabric, and will be making my 3rd kilt, using Barb's book as my guide.

I own a Stillwater Standard, and an economy, and they are great for the price. I am looking forward to purchasing from Frugal Corner as well.

My wife was going to surprise me with a kilt at Christmastime, but I kinda found out, and the kilts she was looking at are some of those "questionable" kilts that flood the market looking great, but Buyer Beware! I told my wife to wait.

The price of a "Tank" is worth every penny, because of the craftsmanship of the fabric as well as the sewing. This does not mean that Jerry or Mark sell garbage. Nor does it mean that they use the "sweatshop" so that they profit. Stillwater makes very nice generic kilts, they do not fit you like a custom made kilt does, but they fill a need in the buying public, an affordable product for many of us, same goes with Frugal Corner.

We all are going back and forth trying to express what we mean, and sometimes how we say it, though clear to us, may not be what is intended as others read it.

Alan was trying to remind us why kilts cost as they do. I agree with Alan and Steve, You can make your own! I have! Yes I have sewn before, but the key is not the sewing, but the determination to do it! Start with plain fabric and really mess it up! When you take the time to map out a plaid to the sett, and sew it up for yourself, either by machine or by hand, you will appreciate the cost of ANY kilt.