Who Was Prince Charlie Anyway?

[Phil]

I have seen many hunting pictures,of the 1800's period,where the huntsmen are wearing a jacket with short tails very much like a PC.My old hunting jacket,cut more like a long sports coat, was yellow(lemon we call it) with silver crested buttons,green collar with a silver bullion fox on either side of the collar.

I looked but couldn't find any of the jackets you describe. Here is what is mostly worn nowadays -



and a couple of older Victorian prints and they are pretty well the same -



.

I suppose, like everything else, there would be regional variations though.

[Nanook]

The Prince Charlie is a very similar cut to the type of mess jackets worn by the military and is probably a "civilianised" version.

So my suggestion (again our 1921 sample is indeed in Archer green as confirmed when set alongside a Highland Regiments Nr1).

Welcome back. It's good to see your erudition on the board again.

Lets see how the chieftains respond.

Where once a plethora of small shops did bespoke work, or provided made to measure jackets and waistcoats

A pair of bespoke trousers from a (if the "the") premiere tailor in the U.S. cost in the mid 1950s around $100 USD (that was more than a month's rent for a middle class flat in New York, Chicago or Los Angeles). Suits and jackets, of course, were priced higher. The price of a jacket or suit from the best of Saville Row or any of the top British tailors was, of course, a bit lower but earnings in the U.K. were also lower than the United States.

Already then things were in decline. The Roman style (Brioni and co) took the best of Saville Row and added industrial production and clever use of machines to make suits to rival the best of London at a lower price point and with a bit more flair. New machine in Germany and Italy took to producing textiles of high quality at a low price.

By the 1960s-- if not partially already in the 1950s-- the changing consumption patterns matched with industrial methods lead to a redefinition of men's clothing and with it extreme rationalization and fusing: "glue". It allowed for men's clothing to be more "fashionable" and inexpensive.

I know of NO maker of highland garb today that does not use machines and fusing for their jackets. A traditionally made jacket (tailored with hand stitched floating canvas and built up on the "old tradition") would cost maybe 2500 GBP (still using some modern methods) versus the 150-350 GBP class of most jackets (including those sold by first league shops such as Kinloch Anderson, Dege & Skinner, Haggarts of Aberfeldy, Campbell in Beauly etc).

Few of the afficiandos of highland garb here, I suspect, with all respects to workmanship and quality would be prepared to spend this kind of money.

Are todays glued jackets that much worse than those of old? Not really. Fusing materials have improved significantly over the past years and now holds up better to cleaning solvents than the wool to abrasion--- in other words, before the jacket starts to loose shape its already worn down. In the lower ranks many tailors would work fast and sloppy to try to make a living wage (working on a piece-meal basis). Today its done off-shore within multinational textile networks feeding into large multinational multi-market clothing companies. Quality control is higher.

[Jock Scot]

Hello Phil,I don't think we want to get into the hunting debate,do we?I rather think we may have opposing views! I think you are quite correct that the hunting jacket,as we know of it today,arrived in the early Victorian times.I was really talking about before that time.I should have made myself more clear.You are also correct to say that most hunts wear red coats,although Green( e.g. the Heythrop hunt),blue and buff(e.g. the Beaufort hunt) an yellow(e.g.the Berkley hunt) are also worn.

[Phil]

I really don't have a view one way or the other about hunting although it is not a pursuit I have ever taken part in. If it is my repeating Oscar Wilde's quotation on the subject then I just think it is very amusing and quite accurate. The few horsey/hunting people I have met I have not found to be the most erudite except in matters equestrian so "unspeakable" is apt perhaps and I do not believe anyone eats foxes so "inedible" too is accurate. Please do not take offence though as I am sure you are the exception that proves the rule. I do think, though, that any of the jackets we wear nowadays will have originated in the 1800's and later and are more likely to owe their style to the type of jacket worn by the military as mess jackets than anything worn on horseback.

[Jock Scot]

Ok Phil, no offence taken and I hope none given.I should imagine that the "modern" hunting coat owes little to military origins,far too baggy and sensible,if my uniforms were anything to go by! Nevertheless a PC type of coat was worn as a uniform by the military and huntsmen(often one and the same) in pre Victorian times.I wonder if the idea was "re-invented" by some tailor in ,it appears,the 1920's and re launched as a PC?"There is nothing new in fashion",so I am told.

[Phil]

I know of NO maker of highland garb today that does not use machines and fusing for their jackets. A traditionally made jacket (tailored with hand stitched floating canvas and built up on the "old tradition") would cost maybe 2500 GBP (still using some modern methods) versus the 150-350 GBP class of most jackets (including those sold by first league shops such as Kinloch Anderson, Dege & Skinner, Haggarts of Aberfeldy, Campbell in Beauly etc).

Few of the afficiandos of highland garb here, I suspect, with all respects to workmanship and quality would be prepared to spend this kind of money.

Stewart Christie here in Edinburgh still make traditionally bespoke tailored highlandwear (kilts and jackets) and I would imagine so do Dege & Skinner who are Saville Row tailors and, as such, everything has to be hand-made on the premises. I know that Kinloch Anderson now only supply "off the peg" jackets and refer you to Dege & Skinner if you want the proper bespoke item. I can't speak for the others but imagine that nowadays they will only do mass-produced as well. A bespoke jacket with silver buttons will set you back something in excess of £1200 ($2,331.95) but is a lifetime investment and something to hand on to future generations as a thing of beauty.

[Nanook]

Stewart Christie here in Edinburgh still make traditionally bespoke tailored highlandwear (kilts and jackets) and I would imagine so do Dege & Skinner who are Saville Row tailors and, as such, everything has to be hand-made on the premises.

Saville Row is not what it once was. Rents have been on the rise and many companies have been leaving. Those that stay have picked up a lot of junk to sell. Even Anderson & Sheppard had to leave. Others like Gieves & Hawkes have turned to make their money with declining standards of ready-to-wear. With now Abercrombie & Fitch on the Row its only time before Massimo Dutti and eventually H&M (who already have some flagship locations) take over the area with offices, T-shirts and take-away coffee.

I know that Kinloch Anderson now only supply "off the peg" jackets and refer you to Dege & Skinner if you want the proper bespoke item. I can't speak for the others but imagine that nowadays they will only do mass-produced as well.

Machines.

A bespoke jacket with silver buttons will set you back something in excess of £1200 ($2,331.95)

That's a very good price--- much less than high grade ready to wear. I'd be suspicious of cut corner techniques such as fusing--- so-called "half-floating" is quite common among many self-declared "bespoke" tailors (it saves a lot of time and labour).

but is a lifetime investment and something to hand on to future generations as a thing of beauty.

In clothing there is no such thing as a "lifetime investment". Even the finest traditional (heavy cloth against the trend of Super 100s and beyond) items do wear out--- even if they might not go out of style. Shoes might get patina but jackets get tattered.

[Phil]

Are you in the clothing industry yourself? I don't know the nuts and bolts of the trade myself although I did examine the jacket during a couple of fittings. They make their bespoke items on the premises and I was able to examine this and other work in progress so I think you are perhaps generalising. They do, of course, sell ready to wear items as well as bespoke but I certainly wouldn't describe it as "junk" even if the fit is not perhaps the same.
I have 3 other bespoke jackets going back to the early 1950's (my father-in-law bought nothing else) none of which are in any way tattered, creased, shabby or worn out in any way despite fairly frequent use, and I fully expect them to stay that way (moths willing) so I do think a lifetime of 50+ years is a good investment. Fortunately there are still some firms for whom "planned obsolescence" is not in their vocabulary.