formal evening dress: vest or no?

[macwilkin]

MacLowlife, it's a Sergeant's sash. They're worn in the Commonwealth forces, are red, and denote Sergeants, Warrant Officers, etc. I've never worn one, so I'll leave it to someone else to give more detail.

Sashes were also worn by officers and NCO's of the US Army during the 19th century as a symbol of rank, and the officer's sash worn over the right shoulder:

http://howardlanham.tripod.com/link27.htm

T.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Generally speaking, at least in military terms, sashes are indicative of rank/command. In some fraternal organizations sashes are also worn as either a badge of membership or rank within the fraternity. In the Boy Scots of America khaki sashes were adopted as a method of displaying merit badges. Each badge being about the size of an American half-dollar (approx 30mm) there just wasn't adequate room on the shirt front for the display of the dozens of badges a boy could earn.

In Britain, where there are a number of Royal and State orders of honour or merit a Broad Riband or Cordon is awarded as part of the distinctive insignia associated with the first class of membership. This is usually referred to as the "Grand Cross of the Order of X" and, with the exception of the Order of the Garter, the broad riband or cordon is worn over the right shoulder, with the knot (or bow) resting on the left hip. Pendant from the knot is the badge of the order. The broad riband of the Garter is worn over the left shoulder with the knot resting on the right hip with the badge (known as the Lesser St. George) pendant from the knot.

Civilians only wear the broad riband of an order with white tie, and it is the custom in Great Britain to wear the broad riband under the coat but over the waistcoat. This applies to Highland attire, the exception being gentlemen in Kenmore or Montrose doublets who would naturally wear their broad riband outside of their jacket. For other forms of formal Highland dress an abbreviated broad riband is worn which attaches to the waistcoat rather than passing over the shoulder and around the body.

And because someone might want to know...

Civilians do not wear broad ribands and cordons with black tie.

[AFS1970]

I do so like to learn things. Although I see hat for years what I wore was a violation of the rules. It is a good thing that even with the much older crowd at the Saint Andrew's Society, there was not a Kilt Policeman in the lot.

When I bought my kilt, I bought a set that came with the PC, 3 button Waistcoat, and Belt with silver buckle, as well as a few other things. No mention was ever made of not wearing it all together. When I would go to dinners, It was quite common to see dirks being worn with the PC and this required the wearing of a belt. I wonder would a belt with a buckle other than silver be useful for such a purpose?

As I no longer own a PC or vest, as a matter of fact I no longer own anything that could be considered formal wear, this is not an issue for me. Just about the only formality rule that still applies is the wearing of jeweled items only at evening and plain only at the day. I recently had to adjust even that one, as I was at an event that started at noon time but ended late into the evening. I chose plain, as more o the event seemed informal than formal.

[creagdhubh]

I'm wondering about vests (a.k.a. waistcoats) or lack thereof worn with the Prince Charlie and jackets/doublets of similar distinction: Brian Boru, Regulation, Spencer, Eton, Mess? The context would be formal evening wear, which in my neck of the woods is black tie/tuxedo equivalent.

In Charles Thompson's So You're Going to Wear the Kilt! he suggests that a black leather belt with shiny waist-plate is as appropriate as a 3 button vest (not both together) with a PC and black bow-tie. I've also seen pictures showing 5 button waistcoats worn with cravats/Ascots, with the extra height of the vest accommodating the length needing to be tucked in. From what I've gathered thus far, this gives three options for the PC or its approximate equivalents:
1. 3 button vest with bow-tie
2. 5 button vest with cravat
3. belt and waist-plate with bow-tie

If Thompson and the retail/rental catalogues are attempting to provide theory, what is the practice?

Which configuration do you prefer and why?

Pictures are most welcome!

I like to wear a three button vest made of black barathea, or tartan cut on the bias, with my regulation doublet. I really love the latter!

[creagdhubh]

Here's what I've gleaned:

Doublets- a broad category of the most formal evening wear jackets, encompassing the Sherrifmuir, Regulation, Montrose, Kenmore, and other similar but unnamed styles. Most are designed to be worn with lace jabot and cuffs.

Coatee- a less formal type of evening wear jacket encompassing the Prince Charlie. The "Brian Boru" is a recent modification of a Prince Charlie that was created for Irish kilt-wearers (by our own MOR, I think?).

Mess Jackets- These are military or military-inspired evening wear jackets that do not typically extend past the waist (i.e. no Inverness skirts/ tashes, no Prince Charlie back flaps.) These seem to be more rare, although here is a great photo of P/M John D. Burgess wearing a rifle green one:


Crail, Argyll, and Braemar are multiple (and IMHO unnecessary) names for different permutations of the same kilt jacket, according to the sleeve ornamentation. See this thread, post #2 by McMurdo: http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...31/#post435770

I really don't have a clue what a "Spencer" or an "Eton" jacket is. I've never seen that name used in reference to traditional highland dress.

Cordially,

David

P/M Burgess looks absolutely superb doesn't he? I love the waistcoat, and basically the whole ensemble!!!

[creagdhubh]

I think David is on the money with this reasoning. The difference in my mind of a regular 'kilt wearer' who wears it as much as he can, as opposed to a 'kilt owner' who sees it as a costume. I've seen the same sort of things, full on PC outfit during the day at the games, PC jacket over a pirate shirt at renfair etc...

I call this the "I paid for this outfit, I'm gonna wear it" syndrome; these fellows bought that rig for some event, wedding, Burns upper, etc., and now any time there is a "kilt thing" they drag it all out and put it on, many of them only once or twice a year. Most of them view it as a costume, the idea of the kilt with other types of clothes/levels of dress doesn't occur to them. I know I've heard that attitude from 'non-kiltwearers' before, I read a post on a menswear forum where a guy complained about a kiltie at his church, saying; "He had on a kilt and those socks, but not the rest of the outfit, just a shirt and tie".

Another 'subset' of this is the "I paid for this outfit, I'm gonna wear it, even if it doesn't fit anymore" syndrome; This one is in evidence at Burns suppers and other formal events around the world, when they drag it all out and put it on once a year, even though they've gained 20+ pounds since they bought the thing. Y'all know what I mean, thats when you see that expanse of white shirted belly between the top of the too tight kilt and PC/waistcoat. That's actually a time when the PC and belt/waistplate might be the better option, (and to be honest, when I see the P/C - belt combo, I assume this is the case) but of course some of those belts don't have a lot of adjustment either!

Well said mate.

[creagdhubh]

Nice photos, especially the last one of my Chief, Sir William Macpherson of Cluny! Yes, he does not wear a waistcoat with his regulation doublet. Instead he wears a black leather belt, with a silver buckle that has his arms engraved into it-I have inspected the buckle very closely whilst I was with Cluny in 2008. He used to wear a waistcoat all the time with his evening wear, sometimes in red, sometimes in dress Macpherson tartan cut on the bias, but more often than not it was in black barathea. He likes the more easy-going and comfortable look now. Cheers on a great photo of my beloved Cluny!

[creagdhubh]

Ted the Jabot is really another step up the formal scale, in the white tie league, and is normally worn with a "Montrose", or perhaps the versitile "Sheriffmuir". I don't think that wearing a jabot with a PC would be quite right.

Agreed.

[creagdhubh]

Pictures? I have seen it done but not sure how traditional it is. I think I would prefer a belt but maybe it could be option 5... I believe JSFMACLJR claimed no belt, no vest as option 4

Here's Panache with his cummerbund:

Nice pic mate. I'd wear a 3 button waistcoat with the PC, if I owned one. Also, go with some darker colored hose with evening wear. Or, fully fashioned tartan or diced hose-looks much better than the kilt hire white. Cheers!

[creagdhubh]

I almost always wear a waistcoat with evening dress, and on those few occasions when I don't, I do not wear a belt. I dislike belts with the kilt; a personal thing. As I have shown, though, I am not alone in the sans waistcoat, sans belt look. Here is my chief, Sir Lachlan Maclean of Duart showing that it can be done. In hot climes ( and this pic was taken in Atlanta! ) it makes sense.



While Jock Scot and I seldom--if ever disagree--it is worth pointing out that jabots were not always worn solely at white tie events. In the Western Isles one did/does see them worn more often than in other parts of the world even at black tie events. Why wear "English" neckwear when a beautiful jabot can be worn instead? Still, though, Jock is pretty much spot on, in that nowadays jabots tend to be worn for white tie events only...but there is "wiggle room"!

Now, jabots can be worn quite effectively with PC coatees, if the latter are tailored correctly! In a well-made doublet, the waist is higher, as the top of the kilt is higher. If this is done, then there won't be much shirt exposed and jabots look splendid! Here is a picture (from an old catalogue albeit) to illustrate this look:



I'm afraid I do not agree that a cummerbund is suitable with the kilt; in fact I think it looks downright silly!

Wonderful pic and explanation! Your chief looks wonderfully regal! Well done!