TRADITION: let's (re)define it.

[DWFII]

Traditional:characteristic manner, method, or style

Characteristic: A feature that helps to identify, tell apart, or describe recognizably; a distinguishing mark or trait.

Manner:method of artistic execution or mode of presentation

Method:a way, technique, or process of or for doing something

Style: the state of being popular

Therefor traditional is Afeature that helps to identify amethod of artistic execution or mode of presentation.
Or
A way of dressing in a popular way.

Not twisting words. Not misunderstanding. Using the definition of the words used in the definition of the word being discussed.
Is there any thing in that that would put a end date to traditional kilt wear. NO

In 100 years will alt/utili/whatever kilt be considered traditional? If they are still around and are still being worn in the same way then YES!! It may not be a Scottish tradition rather a north American one but either way a traditional form of unbifurcated mens wear.

The issue I have is that a date of death has been engraved on the tombstone of something that is clearly ALIVE!!!

This is a little bit misleading, don't you think?

I don't have access to the full OED anymore but from 2008 Concise Oxford English Dictionary--this is the entire entry not just the 4th or 5th usage. And it is identical (or near-as-nevermind) to what I remember of the OED definition. [note the first entry, which is generally considered the primary and most widely accepted, definition]

Tradition:

• 1 the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.
  
  • ■ a long-established custom or belief passed on from one generation to another.

• 2 an artistic or literary method or style established by an artist, writer, or movement, and subsequently followed by others.

• 3 (in Christianity) doctrine not explicit in the Bible but held to derive from the oral teaching of Christ and the Apostles.
  
  • ■ (in Judaism) an ordinance of the oral law not in the Torah but held to have been given by God to Moses.
    ■ (in Islam) a saying or act ascribed to the Prophet but not recorded in the Koran.

[sevenoaks]

I am new to this forum and do not know all the history of the wearing of a kilt. I do appreciate the scholars in the rabble who know and have studied the wearing of the kilt,its, history, the tartans and the clans.
I do not understand as to why all this discussion is on tradition and the right and wrong way to wear a kilt.
In my mind we all wish we could all connect to our heritage, no matter how far back we need to go in our family tree.
The idea is to get the kilt to become an everyday dress a man can wear without anyone putting us down.
I see in Vancouver BC there is a commercial group.."Men in Kilts" who play on this. They are window washers who wear utility kilts and they drop down on ropes cleaning outside windows on 30 to 40+ windows on large condominium units. People love that. They wear black utility kilts and people love that.
I hike in the forests of Vancouver and have seen guys in kilts hiking the trails. They look great and are so pleasant to say hello to. I travel to Vancouver Island on a ferry and have never met anyone who said I was not in traditional dress. most want to talk to me and never give me any problems...other than a teen who asked why I wear a skirt and am I queer.
I did take the time to explane the kilt and also pointed out that the Sgian Dubh is used to gut people who call a kilt a skirt. This kid turned out to be a good friend and is now wearing a Utility kilt on most days.
I grew up wearing a kilt/rag not to far away from Hadrian's Wall with sheep farmers who wore kilts, in all fashion, they wore tartans over there shoulders to keep warm when the winds blew and they were generally covered with cow Sh-t and dirty. There dogs were very well trained and almost always mud encrusted and also had matted hair hanging on them
The Shepard/farmers generally lived in stone houses with stone/slate floors. They carried a long stick with a hook on one end to catch the back feet of the sheep. I learned to count the sheep as the dogs brought them in Gaelic?...I don't know... but Yan, Tyan, Tethyera,Mmether,Dyk and away beyond that stays in my mind still. The people I grew up with were simple folks and wore kilts most of the time. If they came in to Town, a very small village, to the Pub that my mother and father owned they would come in clean but still in there tartans in one way or another. I remember the singing, the stories, the laughter and the comrade that was always there. I never ever heard anyone criticize anyone for there "non traditional" That was traditional!
This thread appears to be an attempt to stop anyone from ever wearing kilt or even become proud of there heritage unless it is Traditional" whatever that may mean. I can understand that should a man decide to attend a wedding, birth, any more elegant social occasion then he should dress his kilt up...but in no way should anyone dictate as to how a kilt should be worn.
The peoples of the "Borders" still wander the hills,attending there sheep and enjoying the freedom that all men deserve.
I am super proud of my heritage as we all should be.
Wear the kilt, be proud and move forward but please keep the historians and scholars to quide us and protect the old ways.
I know that a lot of stuff we read on the internet is so wrong. I am related to John Peel, the huntsmen from the Lake district. I read an article and he was saying that John Peels song did not say that his coat was "so Gay" but he wore a gray coat. My father and mother sent a great deal of John Peels relics..Ie his spurs, his hunting, horn, his whip and many documents. I see now that "John Peel" his relics and almost everything he did has been removed from that museum because of the people that did not like fox hunting..It is OK if they don't like what happens in the past but that is part of our history and for anyone edit history is wrong.
You know..Now I am rambling..maybe a bit too much Genfidich.
I think we need historians that know the traditions but to say a PVC is not to be worn as it is not traditional, or to say a utility kilt is not to be worn ; to me is very elitist.
Sorry guys this is just the way I feel.
We are here to promote the wearing of the kilts and to proud of our heritage. Remember we have spread out all over the world.

[Bugbear]

This thread appears to be an attempt to stop anyone from ever wearing kilt or even become proud of there heritage unless it is Traditional" whatever that may mean.

I really don't have a place in this discussion, but I don't think that is what is intended, sevenoaks.

[O'Callaghan]

Apologies for the slightly OT post.

The man in said photo is not Pearse, but Cornelius "Conn" Colbert, an instructor at Pearse's St. Enda's school and fellow member of the IRB and Irish Volunteers. To my knowledge, there is no documentation of a green kilt being worn by St. Enda's students; there are, however, surviving saffron kilts from the school. Information on this photo and Colbert may be found in earse's Patriots: St Enda's and the Cult of Boyhood, by Elaine Sisson (Cork University Press, 2005).

V/R,

Todd

I stand corrected. I suspect I may have seen a copy of that photo reproduced somewhere with Colbert incorrectly identified as Pearse.

As for the colour of the kilts worn at St. Enda's, I have read elsewhere that their kilts were saffron, but I have also seen a colourised photo (a different one, showing pupils dancing) with their kilts shown as green. As the colour had been added later, it may well be that the person who coloured it had never seen the original subjects who were in the picture. All the pictures I have seen from there were originally black and white. If there are surviving kilts in existence that are saffron, then I will take it as read that saffron is the correct colour.

The pipe bands founded by the Gaelic League around this time and in the preceding couple of decades wore either saffron or green kilts, and some of them seem to have had two separate uniforms, one of each of these two colours. I can only assume that there were places where the wearing of the green would have got them into trouble?

[DWFII]

This thread appears to be an attempt to stop anyone from ever wearing kilt or even become proud of there heritage unless it is Traditional" whatever that may mean..

With all due respect...does the fact that XMarks has allotted bandwidth for an entire separate thread focused on Modern Unbifurcated Garments (utilikilts etc., etc); or the fact that this is a discussion forum...as in, you know, conversation...rather than a legislature or other ruling body; does any of that carry any weight with you?

Or how about the fact that no one in this thread wants to take away or change the thread about Modern Kilts?

The way I see it, XMarks has made a "room" for everyone who wants to wear a kilt...traditional or not...and that's eminently fair.

Now, I don't mean to be rude, so I would ask you (all of you) to pardon me, but one might just as appropriately suggest that the impulse to (re)define Tradition is " an attempt to stop anyone from ever discussing kilt(s) or even become proud of their (sic) heritage unless it is"...is politically correct enough to satisfy the neo-Jacobins who bridle at anyone who doesn't share their views.

Please, please read this whole thread again...for substance and meaning. And realize that we who have this peculiar POV are simply defending our rights, our "room", we are not trying to impose them on anyone else.

[Dale Seago]

I learned to count the sheep as the dogs brought them in Gaelic?...I don't know... but Yan, Tyan, Tethyera,Mmether,Dyk and away beyond that stays in my mind still.

Not Gaelic, no. But venerable nonetheless:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_Tan_Tethera

[Cowher]

No one is redefining the word tradition. The phrase Traditional Highland Dress is incorrectly defined on this forum by declaring a end date. Why do you keep going back to what the definition of traditional is?
Traditional doesnt have a end date. When it does it becomes historical.

[DWFII]

No one is redefining the word tradition. The phrase Traditional Highland Dress is incorrectly defined on this forum by declaring a end date. Why do you keep going back to what the definition of traditional is?
Traditional doesnt have a end date. When it does it becomes historical.

Why? Pardon me, but allow me to direct your attention to the title of this thread...ahem:

TRADITION: let's (re)define it.

Now what do you think that means?

It makes me even more suspicious that people are weighing in here in a thread and on a subject that they have not read through, or understood...or that they have so little regard for the English language that words and definition become beside the point for them.

And again, I draw your attention to the (Concise) Oxford English Dictionary--widely regarded as the most authoritative source for the meanings of English words. I think it is clearly unequivocal in stating that a tradition needs to be handed down from generation to generation.

I am willing to accept it's authority. If you are not it makes me suspicious that we will never be able to agree or communicate because you are defining words to suit your own preconceived notions. At which point, I know I'm speaking English but you might as well be speaking pidgin or gullah.

But just for the sake of comity, let's accept some variation of your rather (to my ears) idiosyncratic definition of Tradition.... If we do that then the case can be made that we already have a well established "tradition" in this sub-forum--namely that the title and the appropriate subject matter for discussion shall be:

Traditional Highland Dress The place for discussion of Traditional and Classic Highland Apparel and Style. (Basically from the Reign of Edward VII to the 1980's)

Most of us who post here...perhaps even limiting our posts to this sub-forum...like it like that and don't see any reason to abandon or alter that tradition.

[CMcG]

Why? Pardon me, but allow me to direct your attention to the title of this thread...ahem:

TRADITION: let's (re)define it.

Now what do you think that means?

...

And again, I draw your attention to the (Concise) Oxford English Dictionary--widely regarded as the most authoritative source for the meanings of English words. I think it is clearly unequivocal in stating that a tradition needs to be handed down from generation to generation.

A thread heading is generally subject to the qualifications found in the OP. I think I was rather careful to say that this about how XMTS defines the Traditional Highland Dress sub-forum.

I agree with the OED definition of tradition. A key component of it is that tradition is passed down from generation to generation. If THCD stopped in the 1980s, it is no longer being passed down, ergo it is historical and not traditional.

As for the evolution of tradition, it happens organically because it is rooted in the practices of people. There is no central regulatory body and the bearers of tradition are subject to circumstance, as well as imbued with their own idiosyncrasies.

Perhaps an example or two is in order.

Over time, Argyle or diced hose have almost disappeared from day wear and, similarly, dirks are rarely found in formal evening wear. At the beginning of the Reign of Edward VII, both these things were more common. Or at least this is what I have observed from the "Show Us Your Vintage Kilt Photos" thread.

Now what about the changed UK knife laws (CJA 1988) or the EU ban on seal skins (2009)? How are these affecting traditional kilt wear?

Tradition is not immune to change. However, it does not, and should not, change just for the sake of change itself.

[davidlpope]

I suggest that the sub-forum description be amended to read:


Traditional Highland Dress:
The place for discussion of Traditional and Classic Highland Apparel and Style.



There's been plenty of discussion in this sub-forum through the years about how Traditional Highland Civilian Dress (THCD) is/should be defined, but there's no real need to get to a definitive answer. IMHO, it's enough for someone to know that this is the place to discuss THCD. Folks can read the archived threads to get a feel for how THCD is variously defined by the members in this sub-forum.

Cordially,

David