Joining A Clan?

[ardchoille]

I think I'd go with the Lyon Court's take -- it certainly follows historical prescedence.

Regards,

Todd

I quite like that too.

[Jack Daw]

AYE!! From SBU's !!! 8 years on small boats with small teams ;-)

And to the Marine who posted--Semper Fi, Mack!

HOLD FAST--RANT COMING!!!

I may be getting set in my ways and a wee bit 'crusty' but I really don't stomach well the nay-sayers about today's Clans. I could give a fat-flyin-filp if theses "Associations" aren't the actual clans of yester-year. I get fed up with all the chatter from others trying to TELL others what they should or shouldn't do. From wether they should join a clan, to what if any-tartan they 'deserve' to wear.

In my mind those who attempt to act as anything other than a brother in support and offer adivice--well---are wound just a bit too tight for me. Bet ya couldn't get a sewing needle up their **** with a jackhammer...

I digress...

The first question I ask if someone asks about joining a clan is..."What will YOU DO for THEM?"

I think clan associations are involved in many positive things in our communities--so, if this trips your trigger--then JOIN--but Join to SERVE.

If all one can do is belittle these efforts--my advice, be quiet and get out of the way of people trying to do something positive.

Oh--and one more thing...feel free to try to tell ME what clan I can/can't be a part of or what tartan I should/shouldn't wear ;-)

-Proud US Navy veteran, proud member of the Clan MacLaren Association of North America.

The Clan MacIntyre Association has been around since 1978, and my dad and I were solicited for membership soon thereafter. I didn't sense the need to join until 1999 when I went to the Salado Highland Games and saw that there was no MacIntyre tent among the gathering. The first thing I did after leaving the games was to contact the CMA via its website and join. I've been pitching a tent for them since.

[gilmore]

Hmm...here's what the Lord Lyon has to say:

Every person who has the same surname as the chief is deemed to be a member of the clan. Equally a person who offers allegiance to the chief is recognised as a member of the clan unless the chief decides that he will not accept that person's allegiance.*

*Emphasis mine.

I think I'd go with the Lyon Court's take -- it certainly follows historical prescedence.

Regards,

Todd

I don't know that there is necessarily an inconsistency between that and " 'Clan' means family. If you are a part of that family, then you are already a member of that clan. If you aren't a member of that family, there is no way to join that clan."

It could very well be that the chief has decided not to accept the allegiance of those who "are not part of that family," do not descend biologically from a certain group of people. Or it could be that once again "clan" and "clan association" are being conflated.

[macwilkin]

I don't know that there is necessarily an inconsistency between that and " 'Clan' means family. If you are a part of that family, then you are already a member of that clan. If you aren't a member of that family, there is no way to join that clan."

It could very well be that the chief has decided not to accept the allegiance of those who "are not part of that family," do not descend biologically from a certain group of people. Or it could be that once again "clan" and "clan association" are being conflated.

Thank you for your observation, Gil -- I simply was point out the Lyon Court's position. The Chief (if there is one) of a clan certainly has the final call.

Todd

[gilmore]

The Clan MacIntyre Association has been around since 1978, and my dad and I were solicited for membership soon thereafter. I didn't sense the need to join until 1999 when I went to the Salado Highland Games and saw that there was no MacIntyre tent among the gathering. The first thing I did after leaving the games was to contact the CMA via its website and join. I've been pitching a tent for them since.

I have never done that, but I do feel rather warm upon encountering fellow members.

[Jack Daw]

I have never done that, but I do feel rather warm upon encountering fellow members.

MacIntyres come in the female version, too.

[ThistleDown]

I don't know that there is necessarily an inconsistency between that and " 'Clan' means family. If you are a part of that family, then you are already a member of that clan. If you aren't a member of that family, there is no way to join that clan.

Not quite, Gilmore. "Family" does relate to "clan" but "clan" does not necessarily relate to "family". For example, a Lord Lyon edict that all of the name Shaw (in Scotland) are related was later adjusted to all of the "Highland" name Shaw are related, and then to something like all of those with the name Shaw are related to Mackintosh and to Clan Ay.

Confusing? For sure, but what this really means is that some of our forebears (in the Highlands) through the years acquired surnames derived from our descendancy; others acquired them because they chose to live among those with a dominant name and adopted it (or were adopted by it!); some had home-lands taken over -- however -- by neighbours and changed their names to suit their changed circumstance.

Today that earlier Lord Lyon's ruling is taken to mean: "those who are of or descended from a recognised clan". In other words, if you bear the name Macgillivary you are a Macgillivary. This, despite the fact that you may be descended from the Macgillivarys of Mull and formerly dependant on the Macleans for your livelihood rather than the Macgillivrays of the Central Highlands who are today reconised as Clan Macgillivray.

Even more confusing? Definitely. And it's made even more so by the belief/legend that the Cental Highlands' Macgillivrays are descended from those on Mull. A common problem with clan-connection in the Highlands.

The basis for "clan" membership, therefore, is territorial. If you derive from a region of Scotland (Strathdearn, in the Macgillivray example) you are of the clan that dominated that region in times past, regardless of what your name is today.

That cannot be altered, no matter your wish, except: that you have married into the teritorial "clan" and have accepted its chief as your own, or live in the ancestral lands and, similarly, accept the teritorial chief as your own.

Clan Associations are entirely different.

[Alexaye]

Just my 5 cents. Clan Graham By birth marriage or descent. I joined Clan Graham because of my ancestry and the fact for most of my childhood i never saw my father he was a merchant seaman. I grew up not really knowing anything about my family then or in the past. When my father passed away a few years ago they had a piper attend his funeral, god i was gob-smacked. It was then that i realized from my birth to his passing he never once said that he loved me nor i him. He was a hard man, worked hard drank hard and we never went without. He fought all through the second world war and was in the artillery, was injured on many occasions but went back for more. One thing my mother did tell me was that when he was demobbed and was awarded medals for his service to Queen and country he told them to stuff them where the sun don't shine. So all this said my clan is my family and i want my children to understand respect and love us as parents and the Clan. The world we live in now is one that according to most is we should be politically correct at all times, we should not be racist and all sorts of other rules made by people i have never voted for nor would. We have wars across Europe where minority countries want recognition and Independence. I digress but is this not all about identity and being part of something present and past. Part of a people with which we have strong ties be they religious color creed or race. I want to be part of my family i am very proud of my name, ancestry and past. If that is what being part of a clan is then i am that man.
Yours aye Alex

[gilmore]

Not quite, Gilmore. "Family" does relate to "clan" but "clan" does not necessarily relate to "family". ... similarly, accept the teritorial chief as your own.

Clan Associations are entirely different.

I think you missed my point.

I did not propose the definition that you quote. It was the answer given to some one inquiring of a clan what constituted membership in it.

A different definition of clan membership from a past Lord Lyon was given.

My point is that neither is quite correct in all circumstances. It is the chief of a clan who determines who is a member of it by not accepting allegiance from those he decides are not, or should not, be in his clan. It is not an individual who accepts a chief, but a chief who accepts the individual.

[O'Callaghan]

Somebody could be a chief either through descent or by election. Clan associations or societies have elections, of course. What if one person is descended from the last know hereditary chief and a different person is head of the clan association? Sounds like a potential train wreck.

In the case of Ireland, the Irish Records Office at one time kept track of the heirs of the last known elected chiefs of certain Irish clans. Think carefully just how messed up that is (an heir of someone who was elected??). What if you start having elections again when you form a society and call that person the chief? AFAIK the heirs of those recorded by the IRO definitely seem to have the title of nobility, e.g. The O'Callaghan (who lives in Spain), albeit the Irish constitution says that Ireland doesn't recognise titles. BTW, never put 'The' in front of my user name, for obvious reasons. At one time there was also an eponymous clan society based in Ireland, although it seems to have collapsed, but what would you call their elected leader? Chief? Can't have two for the same clan, or can you?

In contrast, most of the Scottish clan societies do seem to elect someone as chief. Is that person the chief of the clan? Maybe sometimes they are, and perhaps other times they are just chief of the society/association. Does anyone have a better understanding of how that works? I am struggling to understand it.