TRADITION: let's (re)define it.

[Cygnus]

I suggest that the sub-forum description be amended to read:


Traditional Highland Dress:
The place for discussion of Traditional and Classic Highland Apparel and Style.



There's been plenty of discussion in this sub-forum through the years about how Traditional Highland Civilian Dress (THCD) is/should be defined, but there's no real need to get to a definitive answer. IMHO, it's enough for someone to know that this is the place to discuss THCD. Folks can read the archived threads to get a feel for how THCD is variously defined by the members in this sub-forum.

Cordially,

David

[DWFII]

A thread heading is generally subject to the qualifications found in the OP. I think I was rather careful to say that this about how XMTS defines the Traditional Highland Dress sub-forum.

I agree with the OED definition of tradition. A key component of it is that tradition is passed down from generation to generation. If THCD stopped in the 1980s, it is no longer being passed down, ergo it is historical and not traditional.

Tradition is not immune to change. However, it does not, and should not, change just for the sake of change itself.

Point me to any place in the sub-forum subject line where it explicitly says (or even implies) that that traditions which originated prior to 1980 cannot be passed down to the next generation.

Or even that that such traditions cannot evolve once they have become bona fide traditions...being passed down from generation to generation--bearing in mind that evolution is, by nature and definition, a slow process.

I inherited old, traditional Christmas cookie recipes from the German side of my family. Hundreds of years old. Along with the Tradition to make them for Christmas. That's what my G.G.Grandmother did, that's what my grandmother did for her children, it's what my mother did for me and my siblings, and what I did for my children, and they are doing for theirs. Generations.

At one point in time (before 1980) Crisco was substituted for the original lard--people fearing animal fats. And this year, I made my own lard and put it back in the recipe.

A Tradition has to be passed down from generation to generation in order for it to be a tradition. Irregardless of where and when it began. It does not have to change in any respect to retain that status.

When a Tradition changes such that it becomes unrecognizable to the culture that reveres it, it becomes something else. It is no longer a tradition. In that sense, change is, in fact, the destroyer of Tradition.

Sometimes, traditions skip a generation or are lost and then brought back. As long as they bear close resemblance to the spirit and form of the original, they are a continuation of the earlier form.

Who wants to make the case that the four yard box pleated kilt is not traditional because it was not worn or seen for years?

The other thing is that Traditions are historical...always...because they embody the history and the culture of those earlier generations.

And I think that the idea of history and esp. culture being embodied in Tradition...being preserved, carried forward, and, most importantly, honoured...is the central tenet of this whole debate.

And the raison d'etre for leaving the subject line of this sub-forum, and its definition of Traditional Highland Dress, the way it is.

[DWFII]

I suggest that the sub-forum description be amended to read:


Traditional Highland Dress:
The place for discussion of Traditional and Classic Highland Apparel and Style.



There's been plenty of discussion in this sub-forum through the years about how Traditional Highland Civilian Dress (THCD) is/should be defined, but there's no real need to get to a definitive answer. IMHO, it's enough for someone to know that this is the place to discuss THCD. Folks can read the archived threads to get a feel for how THCD is variously defined by the members in this sub-forum.

Cordially,

David

What's wrong with the idea of making a new sub-forum entitled

Stylistic Riffs on Traditional and Classic Highland Dress.

??

Seems like that would satisfy everybody--the auld crabbits and fuddy-duddies such as myself and the unsettled revolutionaries such as...

[DWFII]

Here's yet another question for those following this discussion...


Given that there are currently three categories under the rubric of "How to Wear the Kilt"

Historical Highland Attire--The place for discussions about Historical Highland apparel and uniforms. (Basically prior to the Reign of Edward VII.)


Traditional Highland Dress--The place for discussion of Traditional and Classic Highland Apparel and Style. (Basically from the Reign of Edward VII to the 1980's)

Modern Kilt wear--The place for discussion about the ways the kilt is being worn today. (Basically from the mid 1980's to today.)

It seems to me even more deliberate and judicious...and fair...than I had originally thought..

The moderators have created three categories of discussion covering every period of time that is relevant to the wearing of a kilt....even post 1980's.

The Modern Kilt Wear forum doesn't limit the discussion to MUGs nor does it exclude evolving, on-going, "living" "traditions" (if such there be).

So my question is:

"Why can't those who are unhappy with the restrictions they percieve in the Traditional Highland Wear forum, take their discussion to the Modern Kilt Wear Forum?"

Again, I become suspicious that change for change sake is what it really is all about. There doesn't seem to be a good, logical, rational reason not to post there if that's your predilection. Unless perhaps people feel some disdain for, or a desire to remain aloof from, the "Modern" Kilt Wear Folks.

??

What needs to be covered or discussed here with regard to post 1980's kilt wear than can't be discussed in a sub-forum, specifically created for, and dedicated to post-1980's kilt wear?

[davidlpope]

What's wrong with the idea of making a new sub-forum entitled

Stylistic Riffs on Traditional and Classic Highland Dress.

??
Seems like that would satisfy everybody--the auld crabbits and fuddy-duddies such as myself and the unsettled revolutionaries such as...

There's no need for it. If someone wants to "stylistically riff" on traditional and classic Highland dress, they should post in the "Modern Kilt wear" sub-forum. At least that's what I took away from this thread:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...09/#post992158

[davidlpope]

So my question is:

"Why can't those who are unhappy with the restrictions they percieve in the Traditional Highland Wear forum, take their discussion to the Modern Kilt Wear Forum?"

Again, I become suspicious that change for change sake is what it really is all about. There doesn't seem to be a good, logical, rational reason not to post there if that's your predilection. Unless perhaps people feel some disdain for, or a desire to remain aloof from, the "Modern" Kilt Wear Folks.??

What needs to be covered or discussed here with regard to post 1980's kilt wear than can't be discussed in a sub-forum, specifically created for, and dedicated to post-1980's kilt wear?

Here's why. The dividing line that I see among those on XMarks is not between those who wear their kilt according to "some arbitrary date, i.e. 1980" vs. "how it's worn now". The real distinction seems to be between those who believe that there are normative standards which describe "proper/appropriate" wear of the kilt and those who don't. It's been made very clear that such norms are not acceptable in the Modern Kilt wear sub-forum:

Does this clear up the intent of this forum section? It should be where members can go to see examples of how the kilt can be worn today. We can take inspiration from the Historical Kilt Wear section, and also the Traditional Kilt Wear section. We can veer away from those as we deem.

There are no kilt cops, No one should be able to tell you that you are not doing it right or dictate rules based on how the kilt was worn in 1782 or 1900.

I remember the early days of the forum when we would joke about the "Kilt Cops". There were comments like: (delivered in very poor, and politically incorrect, Mexican accents) "Kilt Cops? We don't need no stinking Kilt Cops."

In those days it was recognized that there is no single, proper, or correct way to wear the kilt.

The Modern Kilt Wear forum section's description is correct. "As the kilt is worn today."
That is everything including full Prince Charlie with all the bells and whistles and also a totally punked out or goth kilt with enough spikes to terrify an airport security agent.

I hope that this discussion will once again let our members know that the strength of this forum is that we graciously accept all the ways to wear the kilt. The only thing that matters here is that you wear it.

In the Traditional Kilt Wear section of the forum there is a widely debated but accepted way that the kilt was worn, then. There is no written rule or law about how how the kilt was worn but there is an understanding of what is meant when someone says they wear their kilt in the Traditional manner.

This section is for how it is worn today. Wear it in what ever manner you are comfortable with and with pride.

The thing we seem to have missed somewhere along the line is that when someone says something like "that's not traditional" it can be perceived by others as being dismissive and implying that one way is correct and everything else is wrong. What was intended by one as helpful and instructive can be perceived by another as snobbish. It may not have been the intent of the comment but it is how it can be received and interpreted.

Please notice that the major heading of this section of the forum is "How to Wear The Kilt"
Under that major heading are the four sub-headings:
Historical Kilt Wear
Traditional Kilt Wear
Modern Kilt Wear
How to Accessorize Your Kilt

This section was originally intended as a photo showcase of, and inspiration for, how to wear the kilt in relation to time periods.

Fashion changes. Likes and preferences change. Marketing changes.

i.e. If someone wished to find information on how the Kilt was worn during the period of the of the early to mid 18th Century they could go to the Historical Kilt Wear section and find examples to guide them in creating a Historically appropriate outfit.

The information in each section would be appropriate to the time period.

It was originally thought that the Modern Kilt Wear section would have the most posts as the wearing of the kilt today is still undergoing much change and adaptation.

The way the kilt was worn in the other time periods are already set simply because those time periods are in the past. They are not changing anymore.

The question was asked if the Modern Kilt Wear section would be the appropriate place to show examples of wearing white hose and flat caps. Well, yes it would. If someone wears white hose and/or a flat cap with their kilt and wished to post an example it would be acceptable to do so here.

Just as acceptable as it would be to post, for example, a Prince Charlie with black buttons, an 8yard, hand-sewn Tank made from Silver Lame, a Utilikilt with kilt hose and wing-tip shoes, or any other way that some of our members have done it.
None of these examples would be appropriate to any other time period than the present.

This section would also be the appropriate place for showing how a kilt can be worn with an "Ike" Jacket, Ghillie Brouge Boots, or while rafting the Colorado River just to borrow from some current threads.

Where we have had problems is when we have used what was appropriate to one time period being used as 'rules' to judge the wearing during a different time period.

It's also clear (to me, at least) that such norms are acceptable to those who routinely post in this sub-forum and describe themselves as "traditionalists".

So, taking out the date range will reflect what the sub-forum is actually about: current wear of the kilt which reflects traditionalist sensibilities.

Cordially,

David

[DWFII]

The real distinction seems to be between those who believe that there are normative standards which describe "proper/appropriate" wear of the kilt and those who don't. It's been made very clear that such norms are not acceptable in the Modern Kilt wear sub-forum

I believe that myself.

I see all this as a way to subtly subvert that premise. To make white hose acceptable to people like Jock.

But hey! Maybe the way to resolve this debate is to have Steve comment on his rationale as it relates to what has been said and what is being proposed.

I'm happy with the way things are now. I can live with the 1980's framework. For all the trouble and thought that went into structuring the various sub-forums in an obviously unsucessful attempt to please everybody, I'm sorry for those who can't.

[CMcG]

<snip>The real distinction seems to be between those who believe that there are normative standards which describe "proper/appropriate" wear of the kilt and those who don't.

...

It's also clear (to me, at least) that such norms are acceptable to those who routinely post in this sub-forum and describe themselves as "traditionalists".

So, taking out the date range will reflect what the sub-forum is actually about: current wear of the kilt which reflects traditionalist sensibilities.

Well said David.

I believe that myself.

I see all this as a way to subtly subvert that premise. To make white hose acceptable to people like Jock.
<snip>

Let me assure you DWFII, I have no intention of trying to somehow subvert tradition by suggesting that there is a problem with the XMTS definition of the Traditional Highland Dress sub-forum.

Let me also reiterate that, while I take responsibility for being the OP, this thread was actually Jock's idea... and fear not for his traditionalism, white hose will never be acceptable to Jock Scot even if the time period definition of this sub-forum were to change

[DWFII]

I'm not worried about Jock...he's a grown man and has his own likes and dislikes, some of which I share, some of which I don't have the background to have an opinion about.

The white hose bit was just a "metaphor"...

You think this would be a good change and that my "white hose" fears are ungrounded...we'll see.

It's not my call, of course, but if the 1980's time frame is going to be removed, then I think the word "Traditional" ought also to be removed. That, too, would be consistent with Jock's Bracket Thread.

That's the only way I'd support such a change.

PS I have offered several compromises. There doesn't seem to be any willingness to compromise, however. That's why "neo-Jacobin" (and you know how that's got to play out) and "change for change sake", came to mind. There's a sense of a "railroad" being run through the midst of all this. I was here before this sub-forum was established and I remember how much of a relief we all felt when it was. And now, apparently, there's a move afoot to take it all away.

I wish there was a smiley for shaking the head or flabbergasted.

[Jock Scot]

Okay, I really do have to chip in here. Not unreasonably I am being used as an example of "the traditional kilt wearer" and that is fair enough as using a name does give every one a bench mark. In passing, it could have been one of a number of us, so no big deal.

So there we have a picture of Jock, posted on an XMTS thread, at the foot of Ben Nevis dressed traditionally in the tartan kilt at the "correct height", wearing the "correct hose","correct tweed jacket and waist coat","correct tie","correct sporran" "correct shoes" and everyone, including me, is happily thinking----it seems---"well old Jock is as traditional as we can get", or some such.

I have said it,others have said it, Matt has superbly demonstrated with his series of pictures in this interesting thread, that there is more than one way to be kilted and still be traditionally attired wearing the kilt. And I think we are all agreed on that.

The sticking point seems to be the 1980's thing, some see no problem with it,others think that an end date for traditional kilt attire is shall we say "unhelpful" as traditional kilt style is as valid today as it was in 1901, even with slight changes in style over the years that we are all apparently happy to live with.

So there we have all these pictures of Jock on XMTS that are being used as a fine example of how a traditionally kilted Scot---or,whoever from wherever------should look like. Yes?

Well let me tell you that none---not one---- of the pictures of me and published here, were taken before the year of 2003 when I ventured into the technological world of computers and digital cameras.At a guess 95% of the pictures published here by anyone, were taken after, well after, the 1980's.

So I have to ask the question:-

"As these pictures are of a traditionally kilted Jock (in most people's view I suggest) that have been taken and published well after the XMTS 1980's definition. Just what classification is my attire? " Personally I can see no other definition than, traditional, that would fit.

I will leave you all to draw your own conclusions of whether the cut off point of "traditional kilt attire" should be "the 1980's", or even if a cut off date is required at all.