Military Box-Pleats: some questions for the rabble.

[Nick the DSM]

Then I think you own an Argyll & Sutherland military kilt. :-)

The A&S and Black Watch both wore the same tartan, but pleated differently. One difference is that the A&S kilts were box pleated, while the Black Watch were knife pleated. They were also pleated to different stripes. Also, prior to sometime in the early 80s the A&S kilts were a slightly lighter shade, but after 1983 (I think) they went to the same shades for both regiments.

Just a bit of interesting trivia for your morning!

Thank you, I forgot that tidbit at 1 in the morning when typing that up. And this is a kilt from the 90's, so it is the darker shade.

[OC Richard]

Then I think you own an Argyll & Sutherland military kilt. :-)

The A&S and Black Watch both wore the same tartan, but pleated differently. One difference is that the A&S kilts were box pleated, while the Black Watch were knife pleated. They were also pleated to different stripes. Also, prior to sometime in the early 80s the A&S kilts were a slightly lighter shade, but after 1983 (I think) they went to the same shades for both regiments.

Just a bit of interesting trivia for your morning!

And the situation was even more complex than that! Because Officers' (and certain senior Noncommissioned Officers') kilts were made of different fabric from Other Ranks' kilts in each regiment.

The Officers'/Senior Noncommissioned Officers' tartan in The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders is easy to distinguish because of the much lighter shade of green. (Keep in mind that the Other Ranks' kilts aren't like that; they're the same as the Black Watch Other Ranks' kilts.) Here's the Officers'/Senior Noncommissioned Officers tartan, worn right up until the creation of The Royal Regiment of Scotland:



and for comparison The Black Watch



The Officers' and Other Ranks' kilts in the Black Watch aren't as obviously different from each other as they are in The Argylls. You can see them together in the righthand postcard

[OC Richard]

Oh my... oh my... there's a Royal Regiment of Scotland kilt, which is basically an Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders kilt, "Government tartan" (Black Watch tartan if you please) with the lighter shade of green, boxpleated to the line, heavy weight, in just my size on Ebay right now.

[Grae]

Very infomative thread, I have heard the term "barrel" pleats with reference to some military kilts and a "cane" used to keep the pleats shapley, is this another name for the (probably misnomer) miltary box pleat being discussed here or is another variation of pleating used by the military regiments ?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Very infomative thread, I have heard the term "barrel" pleats with reference to some military kilts and a "cane" used to keep the pleats shapley, is this another name for the (probably misnomer) miltary box pleat being discussed here or is another variation of pleating used by the military regiments ?

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: my impression is that while the pleats are constructed the same, the finishing process (in terms of pressing) is different. In this case the pleats are not intended to be pressed flat, but left somewhat rounded, which is why the cane would be used to shape out the pleats. Bob Martin does a good job of describing this style of pleat in his book, All About Your Kilt, which is where my information comes from. I can't recall being able to examine a kilt made in this fashion in person.

[OC Richard]

I have heard the term "barrel" pleats with reference to some military kilts

Which regiment(s) in which army?

I ask because from time to time on this forum there have been posts which suggest that various things are worn by the "military" or by "regiments" which in my nearly 40 years of studying the subject I have never come across, and it would be informative for all of us if specific evidence for these things were shared here.

I have certainly seen old military boxpleated kilts which haven't been pressed in a long time, where the edges of the pleats have disappeared and the pleats have become very much like a series of tubes. In those regiments, though, the kilts maintained by the soldiers don't look like that, but have crisp-looking pleats.

[Mike_Oettle]

OC Richard wrote: “Because Officers’ (and certain senior Noncommissioned Officers’) kilts were made of different fabric from Other Ranks' kilts in each regiment.”

Exactly right. In my regiment, First City, the men’s kilts were made of quite coarse cloth. The officers’ kilts (also worn by warrant officers – sergeants-major, that is) were of finer material.
We were issued our kilts (and had to return them), but the officers had to buy their own.
Regards,
Mike

[OC Richard]

I'm taking an Elsie Stuehmeyer kiltmaking class at the moment, and I asked her about mililtary boxpleated kilts. She made loads of those in her time at Thos Gordon & Son.

She took the kilt I was working on (with ordinary knife pleats) and demonstrated how they would be turned into box pleats. She said that the pleats are sewn in the same manner, in other words at a certain stage of kiltmaking a boxpleated kilt and a knifepleated kilt are the same, but at a certain stage the pleats are pressed into the boxpleated shape. I can't say that I understood her, even though she took my kilt and manipulated one of the pleats into the boxpleated shape right in front of my eyes.

She recalls that boxpleated kilts were a pain in the neck.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

She took the kilt I was working on (with ordinary knife pleats) and demonstrated how they would be turned into box pleats. She said that the pleats are sewn in the same manner, in other words at a certain stage of kiltmaking a boxpleated kilt and a knifepleated kilt are the same, but at a certain stage the pleats are pressed into the boxpleated shape. I can't say that I understood her, even though she took my kilt and manipulated one of the pleats into the boxpleated shape right in front of my eyes.

That's pretty much what I've been trying to describe in this thread. I hope you are enjoying the class, Richard!

[Alan H]

Panache has a military box pleated kilt, made by way2fractious, who has taken 3-4 of Elsie's kiltmaking classes. Drop him a line and ask what he thinks. The kilt is in the X Marks tartan.