Clan Heraldry: What you can and can't wear and display

[Chas]

It really is so simple, that I fail to understand how anybody can't understand.

If a person, in Scotland, uses any form of heraldry and claims it to be their own, without the permission of Lord Lyon, they have committed an offence. The punishment for which is up to Lord Lyon's discretion.

That's it. Simple. Is it really so difficult to understand?

Nothing to do with buying souvenirs and never was nor will it be.

[Nathan]

I just returned from Dumfries after a long weekend with family . . . . complete with a Robertson coat of arms keyring and pin badge, which I bought from a tourist shop.

I think you're just being a bit of a troll at this point.

[A Robertson]

It really is so simple, that I fail to understand how anybody can't understand.

If a person, in Scotland, uses any form of heraldry and claims it to be their own, without the permission of Lord Lyon, they have committed an offence. The punishment for which is up to Lord Lyon's discretion.

That's it. Simple. Is it really so difficult to understand?

Nothing to do with buying souvenirs and never was nor will it be.

I am not claiming the coat of arms to be my own.
Simple.
Anyone can wear them
Simple.
I wear Robertson tartan. Anyone can.
Simple.
I can fly any flag I like.
Simple.
(The only things I cant wear, do, whatever, are things that are corporate copyright.)
Simple.
You are still quoting from 'the same book'

[Chas]

I think you're just being a bit of a troll at this point.

I agree with you, Nathan.

[Harold Cannon]

I am guessing you mean this is the case if you are a resident of Scotland?

It really is so simple, that I fail to understand how anybody can't understand.

If a person, in Scotland, uses any form of heraldry and claims it to be their own, without the permission of Lord Lyon, they have committed an offence. The punishment for which is up to Lord Lyon's discretion.

That's it. Simple. Is it really so difficult to understand?

Nothing to do with buying souvenirs and never was nor will it be.

[Chas]

I am guessing you mean this is the case if you are a resident of Scotland?

No, Harold. The law is the same for all people, when they are inside the country.

Can I go to your town and break the law and get away with it, because I don't live there? I don't think so.

[Harold Cannon]

I beg to differ and will dig up the email from Bruce Gorie (Secretary of the Lyon Office) tonight. Armigers on a visit may use their arms up to six months as long as it is not for commercial purposes without having to register them with Lyon.

I had that same question and went straight to the horses mouth for the answer. I have asked him a couple points of clarification and this was one along with the one about wearing a feather with a clansman's crest badge.

[Harold Cannon]

This would need to be read from bottom to top.



From: Bruce.Gorie@gro-scotland.gsi.gov.uk on behalf of Court_of_the_Lord_Lyon_-_Lyon_Office...and.gsi.gov.uk You moved this message to its current location.
Sent: Tue 12/11/12 2:33 PM
To: haroldcannon@hotmail.com

Dear Mr. Cannon,

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. I can confirm that wearing your Arms or crest on a pin would not cause any difficulty and there would be no need to contact the Procurator Fiscal.

Yours sincerely,

Bruce Gorie




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From: harold cannon [mailto:haroldcannon@hotmail.com]
Sent: 11 December 2012 14:18
To: Court of the Lord Lyon - Lyon Office
Subject: RE: Arms from outside the jurisdiction of the Lyon Court being used on a short term basis in Scotland.


Dear Mr. Gorie,

Thank you for your reply. The only way that I could see my arms being used other than what you have mentioned, would be possibly displaying my banner of arms or my crest in the form of a pin.

Would I need to check with the Procurator Fiscal to see if my intentions would be allowed? If so could I get contact information for him?

Yours In Service,
Chaplain, Harold Cannon



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Subject: RE: Arms from outside the jurisdiction of the Lyon Court being used on a short term basis in Scotland.
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 09:25:45 +0000
From: Court_of_the_Lord_Lyon_-_Lyon_Office...and.gsi.gov.uk
To: haroldcannon@hotmail.com


Dear Mr. Cannon,

Thank you for your further e-mail and please accept my apologies for not responding sooner.

It is certainly the case that the use or display of unlawful Arms, that is Arms that are not on record in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland in name of the bearer or to which he or she is in right, could cause difficulties if it came to the attention of the Procurator Fiscal to the Court of the Lord Lyon. However, while the Lord Lyon cannot formally authorize use of unregistered Arms, it would not cause any difficulty if Arms on record elsewhere were displayed in Scotland while the owner was here for a short period such as you mention. Such occasions might be while attending a clan gathering or similar event or, during your stay, using headed notepaper bearing your Arms, or displaying your Arms on a table banner at a formal function. You do not say how you might use your Arms but I do not think it would be appropriate for the Arms to be displayed, for example, on publicity material being distributed in Scotland but whether this sort of display would cause you difficulty would be for the Procurator Fiscal to decide if it came to his attention.

I do hope this is of help, but if anything is unclear or you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us again.

Yours sincerely,

Bruce Gorie

Bruce Gorie
Secretary to Lyon Office,
Court of the Lord Lyon,
HM New Register House,
Edinburgh,
EH1 3YT
Tel: 0131 556 7255
Fax: 0131 557 2148





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From: harold cannon [mailto:haroldcannon@hotmail.com]
Sent: 10 December 2012 23:54
To: Court of the Lord Lyon - Lyon Office
Subject: Arms from outside the jurisdiction of the Lyon Court being used on a short term basis in Scotland.


I just wanted to touch base on this as I have not heard a reply from my origional email.

Yours In Service,
Chaplain, Harold Cannon



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From: haroldcannon@hotmail.com
To: lyonoffice@scotland.gsi.gov.uk
Subject: Arms from outside the jurisdiction of the Lyon Court being used on a short term basis in Scotland.
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 01:41:28 +0000


Mr. Gorie,

Here in the United States there is no heraldic authority so we are free to assume arms if we wish. There is a great group call the American Heraldry Society which I am a member of that has set out a basic guide for heraldic practice in the United States. I have created a coat of arms for myself with the help and guidance of experienced heraldic artists. I have also had them registered here in the U.S. and also with the Cronista de Armas de Castilla y León, that being said would I be accorded the right to use my arms on a temporary visit to Scotland? The trip would be about two weeks at the longest and I would have occasion to use them in conjunction with some activities that I would be attending. Some have told me that I could be fined or possibly arrested for using my arms as they are not granted the Lyon Court. I feel that there would not be any harm as this would be a short term trip and probably a once in a lifetime trip. My understanding is that an armiger may use there arms in Scotland for a certain amount of time before they must be registered with the Lyon Court. I would greatly appreciate you shedding some light on this subject for me as there seems you be a good amount contradicting information floating around. Thank you for your time and attention and I happily await your reply.

Your In Service,
Chaplain, Harold Cannon

[Chas]

Do what you want, Harold.

[Harold Cannon]

The truth is the truth and the above is from the authority on the matter.