How are Black Watch kilts pleated?

[longhuntr74]

I did a search and didn't find what I was looking for...even though I know there have to be threads that answer my question...but here goes:

I'm getting ready to start making two kilts out of that great deal on Black Watch fabric a few months back. I have read that A&SH pleated their kilts in a military box pleat with the black stripe in the wide green stripe as the prominent stripe. I believe that the Black Watch kilts were pleated to the double black stripe on the blue field in a standard knife pleat fashion.

Can anybody confirm the style and stripe element of a traditional regimentally pleated BW kilt? Approximately how wide is the reveal for every pleat on a BW kilt? Also, I'm wondering which element forms the center stripe on the apron for a regimental kilt...and does it vary between enlisted and officer?

Thanks in advance.

[longhuntr74]

Bump...is anybody there or did I just post this at the wrong time of day for those that know the answer to see it?

[O'Callaghan]

I had actually read somewhere that one regiment pleated to the stripe and the other to the sett, although I could never remember which way around it was supposed to be, viz a viz the Black Watch and the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders. OTOH, the military style is usually to pleat to a stripe, so this could be wrong. I expect I'm just confusing the issue further!

[DougC]

there is a regimental kilt on a particular auction site right now that looks to be pleated to the black stripe in the green. search and take a look--good pleat picture.

[David Duncan]

I don't have the answer to your question of the top of my head, and don't have the time at the moment to research it for you.

However here is the URL for the black watch official web site
http://www.theblackwatch.co.uk/

They will certainly be able and willing to answer all your questions, and may even put you in touch with one of their kilt makers.

Trust this helps, and when you are finished, don't forget to post photos.

Kid Regards,

David.

www.your-kilt.com

[OC Richard]

It's confusing because both the kilts of the former Black Watch and the kilts of the former Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders are in "black watch" tartan. (I say "former" because all Scottish regiments have been amalgamated into the Royal Regiment of Scotland).

This instance of two regiments sharing the same tartan, while in the 19th and 20th centuries an anomaly, was actually the norm in the mid 18th century when all Highland regiments wore the same tartan, called simply the "Government" tartan.

The Gordon Highlanders were the first to break this pattern. When they were raised at the end of the 18th century they decided to add a yellow stripe to the universal Government tartan, yellow being their "facing" colour. This started a new fashion, that of each regiment having a different tartan.

Anyhow the kilts of the 93rd Foot/ Argyll & Sutherland Highlands and the 42nd Foot/ Black Watch were rather different, the Argylls kilt in what the regiment calls "Sutherland" tartan, using somewhat lighter colours than the very dark tartan used by the Black Watch.

Like all Scottish military kilts they

-are pleated to the line
-have grass-green binding, not tartan binding, around the top
-lack belt loops
-lack fringe

About pleating, yes the Black Watch and Gordon Highlanders had knifepleated kilts while the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, Cameron Highlanders, and Seaforth Highlanders had boxpleated kilts.

About the specific line of the tartan that shows on the pleats, I just looked through some photos of these regiments and it looks like the kilts of the Argylls are pleated to the dark line in the centre of the green band. Officer's kilts are a somewhat lighter shade than ORs' kilts.

It's very hard to tell from photos of the Black Watch because the tartan is so dark. Mike Chappell's illustrations in the Osprey book Scottish Units in the World Wars show both Officers' and ORs' kilts pleated to the centre of the blue area. I've come to trust his accuracy. His illustrations of kilts of the Gordons, Camerons, Argylls, and Seaforths in the same book all show the correct pleating and also make the distinction between boxpleated and knifepleated.

About what part of the tartan is centred on the front panel, from numerous photos and paintings I just looked at it seems that the Officers' and ORs' kilts in the Black Watch were the same, being centred on the green band. I know what you mean though- I seem to recall that one of the regiments differed between Officers and ORs in which part of the tartan was centred.

Here's members of the Pipes & Drums of the Black Watch and the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders where the difference in the colour of their tartan can be seen. The Drum Major and Pipe Major of the Argylls are wearing kilts in the Officers' colours which has a lighter green.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Both regiments pleated to the stripe, but the A&S pleated to show more green in the back (to the black stripe on the green), while the BW pleated to show more blue in the back (to the double black lines on the blue).

It is hard to see the pleating details in photographs, because there is very little contrast between the black and navy blue.

[longhuntr74]

Richard and Matt...thanks!! I knew eventually some of you "experts" would weigh in. Richard...thanks for the very complete answer...much of that I already knew, but you helped answer the question at hand...I was able to confirm the centering of the green stripe on the apron when I found a picture of HRH Prince Charles dressed in his BW uniform this morning...and it appears that, in his kilt, it is bordered by the window-paned blue field on his left, making the double black center stripe on blue to the wearer's right of the center stripe (I know that was confusing as hell, but I think you probably follow).

Regarding different center stripes between OR and officers...IIRC, that came up in a previous thread about the Gordon Highlanders when Charles was wearing his Gordon kilt (with civilian attire).

Now there does appear to be a question still regarding pleats. Richard has stated that officers kilts appear to be pleated to the green stripe, whereas Matt has said the BW kilt is pleated to the double black on the blue (all the time I'm assuming?). Most pics I've seen appear to be the black on blue, but I'm willing to acknowledge they are probably all of enlisted kilts. Where did you find the pics of the officers kilts pleated to the green stripe, Richard? I know the new RROS pleat to that stripe.

Any former BW members out there...or maybe Todd, do you know? Or even Barb for that matter??? Which stripe element were Officer's kilts of the 42d Highlanders pleated to?

[OC Richard]

Thanks Matt! Is that an Officer's kilt or an OR's kilt?

I ask because I have a photo of a BW Officer and Sergeant, seen from the rear, and it looks like their kilts might be pleated differently. But as you say the tartan is very dark and hard to tell. What I may be seeing is simply the difference in colours between Officers' and ORs' kilts.

I have an Osprey book, Scottish Units in the World Wars, by an author/illustrator whom I'm come to trust for his accuracy, Mike Chappell.

He clearly shows BW Officers' and ORs' kilts being pleated to the centre of the blue area. I'm sure he's right, because his illustrations of Seaforths, Argylls, Camerons, and Gordons in the same book are all pleated correctly. He's even taken pains to show the distinction between boxpleated and knifepleated kilts.

The Osprey book The Black Watch has horrid inaccurate worthless illustrations. A bit of a tragedy, which I spoke to one of the head guys at Osprey about a couple years ago. He said they plan to go through some of their older books and replace the illustrations. I hope so.

Here's a BW kilt with the bows the regiment calls "rosettes" as worn by Officers and Sergeants:



About the various tartans worn by the Black Watch and the Argylls, I have a book Highland Clans and Tartans by RW Munro which has a photo of swatches of the various military tartans and it gives three different tartans for the two regiments:

- Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders Officers
- Black Watch and A&SH Other Ranks
- Black Watch Officers

implying that the ORs of the two regiments wore the same tartan (though pleated differently). The BW Officers' tartan is similar in colouring to the ORs' tartan but the A&SH Officers' tartan has a much lighter green as can be seen in the photo of A&SH members above.

I should also mention that the look and feel of the tartan used for Officers' and ORs' kilts in all the regiments is quite different.
The tartan used in ORs' kilts is very heavy- 22 ounce I think? - and looks and feels more like a blanket/travel rug that ordinary kilting cloth. It has a somewhat fuzzy, nappy surface like a blanket, and the edges of the various stripes in the pattern of the tartan don't jump out crisply.

The Officers' kilts look and feel like they're made out of ordinary 16/17 ounce Strome kilting cloth, with a flat crisp surface and clear crisp colours.

In the Cameron Highlanders the difference in look between ORs' and Officers' kilts is quite striking, the OR's looking muted and dull and the Officers' having clear bright crisp colours.

The new Royal Regiment of Scotland decided to go with the kilts of the old Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, complete with box pleats and pleated to the line in the centre of the green band. However the "rosettes" of the Black Watch are worn, by Officers and Sergeants.
The sporran is the old Black Watch Officers' and Sergeants' sporran but with the five tassels replaced by the two tassels of the Gordon Highlanders Officers' sporran.
The Glengarries are of the pattern worn by the Gordons and Seaforths, with a blackcock tail.
I would have much preferred that they simply stay with the uniform of the Black Watch, it being by far the senior Highland regiment, rather than a strange blend of various stuff.

[OC Richard]

OK, I finally got good photos of the backs of Black Watch and Argyll & Sutherland kilts which clearly show the difference in pleating.